The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 11:01 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome, all, to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. A Plenary meeting held by video-conference in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006, and the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are noted on your agenda. I would also remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings will apply to this meeting, and they as are relevant to Members in the Chamber as they are to those Members joining us virtually.

Statements on Srebrenica

First of all this afternoon—.

This week marks the poignant twenty-fifth anniversary of the Srebrenica genocide. The victims, the survivors and all those affected by this most shameful act of hatred are in our hearts at this time. I'd like now to invite the First Minister to make a statement.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, diolch yn fawr. As you said, this year, we mark the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Srebrenica genocide. In July 1995, General Ratko Mladić and his Serbian paramilitary units overran and captured the town of Srebrenica, ignoring the fact that the area had been designated as a place free from any armed attack or other hostile act. In the days that followed the town's fall, more than 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were massacred. Thousands of women, children and elderly people were forcibly deported. This was the greatest atrocity on European soil since the end of the second world war.
Today, we remember those who lost their lives in Srebrenica. Our thoughts are with those who have survived them, and who have done so much to make sure that their memory is never far away from the international community. Srebrenica is another name on the list of towns and countries tainted by hate and genocide, but it is also a reminder of what happens when hate and prejudice go unchallenged. It's a reminder to us all to stand together against that hatred and division in our own communities in all its forms, wherever we are in the world. At the Holocaust memorial service earlier this year that a number of us here attended, we heard from Srebrenica, and we heard that slogan that is so often said, 'Never again', and the gap that we all must work so hard to close between that ambition and the actions that we still see around us in the world. We must learn from these dark moments of history.
Mae Cymru'n cofio Srebrenica—Wales remembers Srebrenica.

I'm proud of the relationship that our Senedd has built with Remembering Srebrenica and with the people of Bosnia. And the person who has led on that work for this Senedd—I ask David Melding now to speak on behalf of the charity Cofio Srebrenica. David Melding.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I thank you personally, and the Commission also, for allowing us to have this statement today, which I think is very appropriate on the twenty-fifth anniversary? As you said, it was my honour to lead a Commission delegation in 2015. That year also saw a major celebration—the Welsh national celebration that year—in the Senedd, and it was held with great dignity and purpose.
Now, here we are, 25 years on from this terrible event—the darkest episode, in terms of European conflict, since the second world war. Like the First Minister, I'm wearing the flower of Srebrenica. This flower was crocheted by the Mothers of Srebrenica, mothers of the victims. I think we should remember all the relatives who live with this terrible anguish of having seen their loved ones murdered in that terrible massacre.
I would also like to pay tribute to the Welsh board of Remembering Srebrenica, particularly Saleem Kidwai and Abi Carter, who are the joint chairs and do much—so much—to raise awareness of this terrible event in our history, but also what we should be doing in our own communities to ensure such hatred is never allowed to flourish anywhere in Europe.
I also want to mention how interrelated we are through the work of a Welsh policeman, Howard Tucker, who was the head of the United Nations investigation force in the early 2000s, which led to so much of the evidence gathering and enabled the trials that were held in The Hague of the war criminals. It is a reminder that Wales has its part to play through many of its citizens.
We're a small country, as is Bosnia, and I do hope the links will continue, as they've been led by the Senedd. Also, I commend the work of the Welsh Government in taking opportunities to promote awareness of Srebrenica through the education curriculum, for instance.
We all have our part to play in defending a strong democracy, which can only flourish based on cultural tolerance and the celebration of diverse cultures and traditions. When we do that in Wales, we also help the people of Bosnia, as we do with our direct relations with them, which I hope will long continue. Thank you very much—diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, David Melding and First Minister. Cymru'n cofio—Wales remembers Srebrenica, and our Senedd does so today.

Personal Statement

We return today, of course, to this Chamber, some of us, and we remember Mohammad Asghar, who we lost during the past few weeks. On behalf of all Members, we will remember today, fondly, our colleague, Mohammad Asghar.
But today also is the day we welcome a new Member, Laura Anne Jones—on behalf of the Senedd, croeso—newly returned for South Wales East. We look forward to your contributions here in the Chamber. So, I now call on Laura Anne Jones to make a few statements.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Today, for me, is a day of mixed emotions. I am, of course, immensely proud and honoured to be standing here again representing the people of south-east Wales in this Chamber. But these feelings are tinged with great sadness. I only wish I had this opportunity to serve, and that I could accomplish it, without the sad loss of our dear friend, Mohammad Asghar.
These are tragic circumstances under which to become a Member of this Senedd. I am grateful for this opportunity, therefore, Llywydd, to say a few words about our friend and colleague, who we knew within our party and in this Chamber, affectionately, as Oscar.
Oscar was a kind, caring and generous man, and I know everyone in this Chamber and far beyond will miss him desperately—that wicked glint in his eye and that infectious laugh. Oscar loved his family more than anything in the world, and he treated his staff and wider community as family too. My thoughts and prayers are with Natasha and Firdaus, his family and friends, at this desperately sad time.
Oscar took his role, both here and in his work defending the communities of south-east Wales, very seriously, and was very committed to both. This became very apparent when I attended his funeral, and there were people lining the streets to honour him.I will do all I can, obviously, to honour Oscar myself, and do my utmost to continue his work and give a voice to those who I now have the responsibility to represent. I will try to champion the causes close to Oscar's heart: fairness, social justice, education, and even cricket—a shared love of ours.
Throughout his time as an Assembly Member and a Member of the Senedd, he was guided by one belief: that everyone of any background should be able to get on in life, and he was very determined to help them. Oscar was a people person with a heart as big as the city of Newport, which he loved so much. He strongly believed in free enterprise, bringing, of course, the enterprise Bill here to this Assembly containing proposals to grow the economy.
He was never short of ideas, and I remember one speech to the Welsh Conservatives party conference when, without any consultation, he outlined his proposals for a Welsh airline and his plans to reform the social security system to remove the need for food banks.
Economic growth was important to Oscar, not as an end in itself but as a means to achieve what he wanted to achieve. Oscar wanted to create a successful and dynamic economy in Wales to tackle poverty, enable social mobility, and to deliver the high-quality services that people need and deserve.
His fervent desire to help people was based in his deeply held Muslim faith. However, he respected people of all religious faiths and helped them to understand his own.
There have been many wonderful tributes to Oscar from within this Parliament and far and wide; the leaders in the middle east, where Oscar dedicated himself to promoting peace, and from our own UK Prime Minister, thanking him for his public service and recognising that the work Oscar did will have a lasting, positive impact, which I'm sure his family are very proud of.
It was a pleasure and privilege to know Mohammad Asghar. He was a proud Welshman, a proud Briton, and proud of his Pakistani heritage. Presiding Officer, Oscar's light may have gone out, but the positive impact he had on his community and country will always remain. I will endeavourto continue his good work to the very best of my ability. Thank you. Thank you, Llywydd.

Thank you, Laura Anne Jones, for your very kind words in commemorating Mohammad Asghar, as we all commemorate him today, and I wish you well in your work here in the Senedd.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Questions to the First Minister is our next item, and the first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Reducing the Risk of COVID-19 Infections

Delyth Jewell AC: 1. Will the First Minister make a statement on reducing the risk of COVID-19 infections in factories and other closed settings? OQ55438

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Just before I answer the question, may I just say thank you to you and to everyone who's worked so hard to prepare the Chamber so that we can all return here today?

Mark Drakeford AC: On Monday, Llywydd, I chaired the first meeting of a group to establish a national health and safety forum for Wales, as proposed jointly by the Wales Trades Union Congressand Confederation of British IndustryWales. It will advise on measures to reduce risk in closed settings, over and above the extensive guidance already issued to the sector.

Delyth Jewell AC: I thank the First Minister for his response. I wrote to Kepak and Merthyr council on 1 April this year expressing my concerns about a lack of social distancing and hygiene procedures in their factory in Merthyr after a constituent had raised alarms with me. The constituent was concerned that, unless proper regulations were put in place, an outbreak of COVID-19 could happen there, a concern that was, sadly, justified. Now, whilst my letter to the company went unanswered, the council did take action: they told me that they arranged for the Health and Safety Executive to ensure the relevant regulations were being followed, and that they arranged to have a full-time Food Standards Agency employee at the premises. But we know that this still wasn't enough to prevent an outbreak of COVID-19 at the plant, with 135 people now believed to have been infected.
First Minister, I'm interested to know whether you were aware that concerns had been raised about this plant and whether you were satisfied with the action taken by Merthyr council. Given that the outbreak still occurred despite their best efforts, do you now agree that you need to look again at tightening regulations for high-risk workplaces such as meat processing plants, and that our excess testing capacity should be used routinely to test workers who work under these conditions so that future outbreaks can be better contained?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank the Member for that question? Of course, concerns about the factory were raised by my colleague Dawn Bowden, and those concerns were taken up not simply with the local authority, but with other authorities that have a responsibility for ensuring safety at the plant. That is now overseen by an outbreak control team, which is drawn from the local authority, the local health board, Public Health Wales, the environmental health department, the Food Standards Agency and the Health and Safety Executive. That team is investigating the causes of the number of cases we have seen at Kepak Merthyr.
It is still unclear in the advice that I have seen as to whether or not the rise in cases was caused at the factory, or was imported into the factory from the community. That work continues to go on, and the Welsh Government is regularly updated on the meetings of that team—there's one today—and we will be guided by their investigations and the recommendations that I expect to hear from them.

David Melding AC: First Minister, I note that the World Health Organization is likely to modify its advice on the cloud effect that is generated through breathing and that the particles, very fine, that are so generated can hang in the air for hours, and they are particularly prone to do so in small spaces like toilets where there are hand dryers, for instance. Can you assure us that, as we gain more scientific knowledge of this disease, you will be modifying your guidance as to the proper thing to do, ensuring that it gets to those who need to know about it—[Inaudible.]—?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank David Melding for that. Some of us had an opportunity to discuss this issue briefly with the chief medical officer earlier today. His interpretation of the evidence that has emerged at the World Health Organization is that the bulk of transmission is still more likely to be communicated through droplets rather than through fine particles, and that was the view of Welsh virologists yesterday. But, of course, I can give the Member an assurance that we continue to follow the science, and if the science changes and if our actions need to change, then we will take those actions in line with the emerging evidence.
Coronavirus has turned out, all the way through, to be a virus that causes surprises, and we know an awful lot more now than we did only weeks ago. The evidence that emerged yesterday and overnight will form part of the body of evidence that the Welsh Government will continue to draw upon.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for the answers to Delyth Jewell's question, First Minister, and thank you, also, for your acknowledgement of the work that's been going on there with the company, with the council and with other partners for some considerable weeks before this.
Can I thank the incident management team in Merthyr Tydfil and the Welsh Government for the updates on the incident? That's been invaluable in keeping us informed. So far, it is encouraging to hear that this incident remains contained and that there is no evidence, at this stage, of community transmission, and I thank everyone involved in co-operating to ensure that that remains the case. However, in light of this incident, can you advise me as to whether any other large workplaces in the area, particularly those with similar environmental characteristics that may not always be able to manage social distancing, are also to be inspected and their workforces tested?
And can I ask what measures the IMT are putting in place to ensure that issues of community cohesion are also addressed, given that there's a very large eastern European migrant workforce at these plants?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Dawn Bowden for that and for her acknowledgement of the work that the incident management team have carried out. They were unanimously agreed recently that an outbreak should not be declared at the factory and that it should continue to be managed as an incident.
Dawn Bowden, Llywydd, makes two important points, firstly, in relation to inspections of other factories; I certainly would expect there to be a heightened awareness amongst the Health and Safety Executive and others of the need to do that. And can I pay tribute, for a moment, to the role of the trade unions in all of these sites? Much of the from-the-front-line intelligence that we getcomes through the trade union movement and alerts us to the need to inspect, and were the evidence to point in that direction, to extend testing to other settings.
The second point that Dawn Bowden makes is also very important, Llywydd—issues of community cohesion—and that has been very much in our minds at all the sites that have been involved in outbreaks or incidents. And we have learnt a number of things about the need for messaging in languages other than English and Welsh, to find different ways of communicating with workforces drawn from other parts of the world, and then to communicate clearly to other people in those areas about when there is evidence or, in these cases, no evidence of extensive wider community transmission, to allay fears that inevitably arise that this may be an outbreak or an incident not confined to the plant itself.

Face Coverings

Caroline Jones AC: 2. What plans does the Welsh Government have to review its guidance on the use of face coverings by members of the public? OQ55432

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government guidance encourages but does not mandate the use of three-layer face coverings in public settings where social distancing is not possible. That guidance is kept continually under review.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, First Minister. We now know that the SARS-CoV-2 virus can be spread not just by coughs and sneezes, but be carried in microdroplets and that it can be spread by asymptomatic carriers. Microdroplets are generated by breathing and talking. We also know that face coverings can help to catch microdroplets and prevent the spread of coronavirus. So, why, then, is Wales one of the only countries in the world that does not mandate the use of face coverings in some settings? I would like to see face coverings mandatory in all public settings.
First Minister, will you now commit to the mandatory requirements of face coverings on public transport and an urgent review into whether that guidance should extend to all public places? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, what I commit to is to keeping the issue continuously under review and to take the advice of those who are best placed to provide that advice to us. And the context changes and the advice may change, and if the advice changes, then our position in Wales will change as well.
But I should say to the Member, wearing a face covering is not by itself a magic bullet that prevents people from contracting or spreading coronavirus. Our own chief medical officer has always had an anxiety, and it's an anxiety I see being shared in other parts of the world, that when people wear a face covering, they act in ways that they wouldn't if they weren't wearing it; and they act in riskier ways as well. The belief that by wearing a face covering it is somehow all right not to observe social distancing, for example, not to take care in how you put it on and how you take it off, not to avoid touching your face, because we know that that is one of the ways in which the virus is most likely to be spread.
So, while the Member makes a persuasive case, and I listened to it very carefully, for what she advocates, I think it is important that we attend to the fact that there are potential downsides as well as upsides to this; that's why we keep it continuously under review. And if the position changes, then the Welsh Government's position will change as well.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Does the First Minister agree with me that it's both farcical and confusing to have a different approach from one side of the border to the other, especially when you consider the amount of people travelling on a daily basis from one side to another? Can the First Minister assure me that he'll put aside his difference and his need to be different from England for the sake of being different, and do what the union Unite suggests and urgently review the guidance to adopt a more commonsense approach?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I welcome the Member back to the Chamber, and I think she has just said what I said, which is that we do keep it continuously under review. And I'm very alert to the impact of the border here. There are actions on either side of the border. It is not a matter of England makes a change and Wales must follow. It would be perfectly possible to have had a conversation with the UK Government where we could have reached a joint position; unfortunately, that conversation was never offered to us.
But the Member makes an important point about consistency along the border, and that is very much in my mind as we continuously review our position in relation, both to face coverings, but other changes that have been made elsewhere as well.

RhianonPassmore. RhianonPassmore, we can't hear you at the moment. Can you say something? No, we still can't hear you. Can it be immediately rectified, or I'm going to have to move on? No, I'm sorry, we're going to have to move on, RhianonPassmore.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

So, I now go to the questions by the leaders of the parties.

Leader of the Conservatives, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, key to tackling the spread and indeed the eradication of this awful virus is Wales's testing programme and its ability to reach as many people as possible in order to better inform people before they make decisions about socially interacting. We know that lab capacity in Wales is just over 15,000, which, as you know, is still a long way off the potential 20,000 tests per day that the Welsh Government proposed in the 'Test Trace Protect' document. Indeed, we know that the total number of tests in the last 24 hours was 3,054, which means that just a fifth of capacity has been used. And more worrying, according to official figures, no extra tests were carried out between 28 June and 5 July for healthcare workers across Wales. Clearly, this shows that more testing could and should be done. First Minister, can you tell us why the levels of testing in Wales are so low and can you also tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to increase the level of testing across the country?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think the Member might have acknowledged the fact that at 15,000 tests, that figure is the most we've ever had and has risen very steadily over recent weeks, and more capacity will be added to that as well.
I think the issue on testing, however—the number of tests that are used—is a good deal more complicated than he suggests, because underlying his question is the assumption that more is automatically better. The truth of the matter is that as prevalence of the disease falls in Wales, so there are fewer people with symptoms and fewer people who come forward for testing, and that is not a bad thing in itself, because it demonstrates to us that there is a great deal less of coronavirus around in Wales today than there was a week ago, or a month ago, or three months ago. So, it's not just a matter of saying, 'If you're doing more tests, you must be doing better.'
You need to use your tests for the right reason. You need to use them in the right place. All healthcare settings have direct access to testing, so where clinicians believe that tests need to be carried out, they are carried out, and we are carrying out more tests on patients in hospital than ever before, as more people return to other aspects of the health service. While the prevalence of the disease is falling, there will be fewer people with symptoms and fewer people will therefore come forward themselves, as everybody can, asking for a test. So, it's a bit more complicated, Llywydd,that's what I'm saying, than a simple assertion that if the number of tests are going down, it's a bad thing, and if the number of tests are going up, it's a good thing.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, last week, you made it clear that Welsh Ministers have the powers through regulations to take local action to reduce some of the freedoms in order to deal with local outbreaks. It's absolutely crucial that freedoms are not curtailed any further, so, if at any point the Welsh Government decides to take the decision to introduce localised lockdowns in the future, then it must be made absolutely clear to the people of Wales exactly why that decision has been made, along with providing the latest scientific and medical evidence to justify the Welsh Government's decision.
Therefore, First Minister, can you tell us what discussions you have already had with public health officials about the ability to create localised lockdowns, if the evidence was strong enough to suggest that the virus was prevalent in certain communities across Wales? Has the Welsh Government started undertaking any modelling in relation to introducing localised lockdowns in the future? And what assessment have you made of the impact that having different lockdown restrictions in different parts of Wales could have?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me begin by agreeing with the first point that the Member made. I don't think we should ever restrict people's freedoms unless the case for doing so is very clear and that we have the evidence to justify it. I'm quite sure that, when his political colleagues in London made that decision in relation to Leicester, those matters were very much in their minds at the time, and we would expect to follow exactly that approach.
In relation to evidence, I am very keen to see us reach a point where we are formally able to agree Welsh membership of a joint biosecurity centre. So, I discussed this matter with Michael Gove yesterday morning. This is the body that will draw together intelligence from all sorts, from all parts of the United Kingdom, and give us the very best evidence of local developments in relation to the disease, and that will be available in all parts of the United Kingdom, and they will be common standards and common approaches, too—the evidence that is used, the triggers that will be identified and, indeed, some of the approaches that will be taken as a result of that. I've always thought that a joint biosecurity centre would be something that would be helpful to us in Wales. I believe, from the advice that I have had from my officials, that we are close to a position where we can sign up to it formally, and I pressed Mr Gove yesterday to accelerate those discussions so that we can reach that position. When we have a joint centre—and the word 'joint' is very important; it cannot be a UK body to which devolved administrations are an appendage—it must be a genuinely joint centre and then I think the information that it provides will go a long way to answering many of the questions that Mr Davies has raised with me this morning.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, as new cases continue to fall across Wales, the Welsh Government and local health boards must start looking at other NHS treatment and services, and, as you know, nearly 500,000 were waiting for treatment before the COVID-19 pandemic hit. Now, the Royal College of Surgeons have warned that delays to surgery will already have resulted in an increased need for complex surgery, and the British Heart Foundation have also said that, as services remain unavailable, the urgency of these procedures is increasing, creating a significant cohort of patients who need urgent treatment. First Minister, this in turn will continue to stretch the capacity of the NHS. Now, in light of the very valid concerns raised by organisations like the Royal College of Surgeons and the British Heart Foundation, what strategic discussions is the Welsh Government having with local health boards to ensure that urgent and planned surgeries can take place and that the workforce can cope with the backlog of elective operations? What assurances can you offer to people across Wales who are waiting for treatment that they will be able to access NHS treatments and services, and how are you best supporting local health boards to accelerate the resumption of planned surgeries across Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that important question. On Friday, when I will be able to make public the results of the current three-week review period, I hope to be able to explain to people in Wales the extent to which we are using the headroom we hope we have to go on lifting the lockdown regime in Wales, and the extent to which we are using that headroom to go on reopening the NHS here in Wales, because that is an important part of the way in which lockdown restrictions are being eased, opening up more of our primary and secondary care services. I don't want to say to the Member or to anybody else that this is a straightforward process. An enormous amount of work is going on to create green zones, as they are called, inside our hospitals—coronavirus-free zones—so that operations can resume and people can be confident in returning to those settings that they won't run the risk of being infected by people who are already suffering from the disease. By itself, that will limit the number of operations, for example, that a theatre can carry out in any one day, because the levels of biosecurity that are necessary to prevent the spread of coronavirus are very real and will have a limiting effect in the best of circumstances on the extent to which activity can resume. At the same time, Llywydd, the NHS is having to prepare for the winter that lies ahead, the flu season that lies ahead, and the warnings we all hear of a resurgence of coronavirus in winter conditions. So, while our colleagues in the NHS are making enormous efforts, demonstrated in the second-quarter plans that they have submitted to the Welsh Government to reopen the health service, this will be a balancing act of many competing demands, and nobody should believe that there is an easy or straightforward path back to the levels of activity that the NHS in Wales and elsewhere in the United Kingdom were able to conduct in a pre-COVID world.

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. May I at the outset endorse the comments on the appalling genocide in Srebrenica? They will not be forgotten.

Adam Price AC: First Minister, I've been contacted by the owner of a care home in my constituency. His employees, as he puts it, are hard working and undervalued, and he urgently wants the Welsh Government to honour the promise made in May that every worker in a care setting would receive £500. Waiting for Westminster has never served us well in Wales and, yes, the UK Treasury needs to find its moral compass by making the payment tax free. But there is something that the Welsh Government could do to ensure workers receive in full the amount of money they were promised, whatever Westminster decides. In December last year, doctors were promised that their tax bills would be covered by the NHS while working overtime. Will you, if necessary, offer the same tax cover to carers so they are not left out of pocket?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, it's an important point that Adam Price makes, and we continue to discuss exactly that with the trade unions, in particular. But to make that decision today would be simply to allow the UK Government off the hook, because any suggestion that we will pay it will guarantee that they will not do the right thing and, as you say, rediscover their moral compass on this issue. So, we have continued to be in what we regard as constructive discussions from our point of view with the UK Treasury, outlining ways in which this payment could be made free of tax and national insurance.
I am not at the point where I think those discussions can be drawn to an end and simply to allow the UK Government to be absolved of its responsibilities, and to spend more Welsh Government money on responsibilities that they themselves ought to discharge. We're not asking them for money, as I know Adam Price understands; we're simply asking them not to take away money that belongs to Welsh workers.

Adam Price AC: The COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the importance of the care sector and, I have to say, after reading the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee report today, also its neglect. The care sector has been characterised by zero-hours contracts and low pay for decades. PayScale research estimates the hourly rate on average, for example, to be £8.19. Valuing our care workers must surely start with a decent pay structure comparable with other professions. In February, your Government promised that the lowest paid NHS staff would receive the real living wage of £9.30 an hour. Should not that principle, as a first step to parity with the NHS, be applied now to workers in the care sector? First Minister, in truth, can we afford not to?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I agree with Adam Price, Llywydd, that the coronavirus crisis has shone a spotlight onto the sector and the way in which it has been undervalued over so many years. In the end, the challenge is not for Government; it is a challenge for the whole of our society as to the extent to which we are prepared to pay for decent levels of wages and proper working conditions for people in that sector. And Governments successively at the UK level have failed to come forward with proposals for paying for social care. We were very close to it at one point in 2015 as a result of the Dilnot review, and then necessary legislation fell because of a general election, and we've never been able to get back to that.
The Welsh Government directly pays through health boards for NHS staff, and I was very pleased when I was the health Minister to be able to strike a deal that has guaranteed that the lowest paid people in the health service have always been paid, ever since, the real living wage. We are not the employer in relation to this sector. But I want to be positive in my reply to Adam Price's question because I agree with him that the result of coronavirus ought to be that, as a society, we have to be prepared to find the money to make this a sector that recognises the significance of the work that it does every single day.

Adam Price AC: The Royal College of Nursing and 13 health unions have written to the English Prime Minister, as he's come to be known, asking for discussions on an early NHS pay rise. Will you show the way and also reward our NHS staff? If the current health crisis has taught us anything, it is that valuing those who look after us at the dawn of our lives, the twilight of our lives, and every point in between, should be the priority of any caring nation. During your leadership bid, First Minister, you said that you would not change tax rates unless compelled to do so. Do you now believe that the hard work of health and care workers is a compelling enough reason for you to change your mind?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we will continue in the way that we do, through the spirit of social partnership, to negotiate with the health unions and the local health boards in relation to pay and conditions in the health service. That's the way we do it, and that's the way we intend to carry on doing so. Those discussions are not always easy, nor should they be. Social partnership is not a cosy regime, but it is a place where we get together to try and find common solutions to common problems, and that's how we will approach the pay issue with our NHS staff. My party made a commitment, Llywydd, not to raise income tax rates during this Senedd term. That remains our policy position.

The leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, do you consider it satisfactory that this Senedd, operating under Welsh Government guidance, should just have two opportunities to question you in person over a period of six months? Do you prefer to have scrutiny through daily press conferences, broadcast live, with no opportunity for opposition reply? With many of those media outlets financially dependent on the Welsh Government, do you consider it to be in the public interest for the state broadcaster to subject us to a disquisition on what your favourite cheese is? And how is it consistent with the BBC charter, in all fairness, that, last night, just for example, on Ineos, we were treated by BBC Wales to the Labour Minister, the Labour council leader, the Labour MS and the Labour-funding union, with no opposition reply whatever? You say your urgent priority is to review every street name and every statue in Wales, to see whether it accords with the demands of an organisation that wants to de-fund the police. Isn't it time instead to de-fund the BBC?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, there's never a dog but the Member is prepared to whistle at it, and he's here doing it again today. I answer questions on the floor of the Senedd whenever the Senedd asks me to do so, and it's not my decision as to when that should be, nor should it be. I've answered questions throughout the coronavirus crisis every time the Senedd has asked me to, in committee or in Plenary, and that's my position.
I am not responsible for the BBC and neither should I be. It is not a state broadcaster in any sense, and the Member should know better than to imply that it is, or to imply that it is not right to have a broadcaster to interview those people who are elected to represent people in a particular area, whatever party that may be, in whichever part of Wales that might be.

Mark Reckless AC: So, the First Minister is content with that scrutiny—four Labour voices, no opposition voices? And it is far from the only example. If one depends on one's news on BBC Wales, and many of the organisations funded by Welsh Government to provide news, one would have the impression that, under our great helmsman, Mark Drakeford, there has been a great success in management of the COVID crisis in Wales. Is the reality not that infection rates in Wales have been higher than in England, and substantially higher than in Scotland and Northern Ireland, despite far less testing? Isn't it the case that 1,097 people were moved from hospitals into care homes without testing? And, talk about Westminster and waiting for them, it was two to three weeks after England and Scotland before we saw testing in care homes. Isn't the reality that the management both of the COVID crisis and of the economy has been worse in Wales, and the people of Wales will be paying for it for a very long time?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, as I said to the Member, I will answer questions on the floor of this Senedd whenever the Senedd asks me to do so. So, it's a matter for him, not for me, how often that takes place. I entirely reject what he said. There are always people who happen to live in Wales that wish they didn't. The answer to that is in their own hands rather than mine.

The Impact of COVID-19 on the Economy

Gareth Bennett AC: 3. What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact of COVID-19 on the economy in South Wales Central? OQ55436

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Wales remains in the grip of the coronavirus crisis, but, as circulation of the virus diminishes, economic activity in South Wales Central continues to recover with the support of both Welsh and UK Governments.

Gareth Bennett AC: I thank the First Minister for his response. Getting a co-ordinated response from different Governments within the UK has been one of the problems of the crisis we are living through, and it is clear that the economy in Wales will suffer more because of the First Minister's insistence on doing things differently here. I feel the problem may be aggravated by the First Minister possessing an inflated idea of his own importance.One issue may be that the salary of the First Minister of Wales is almost equal to that of the UK Prime Minister. Given that an important trade association in Wales has just declared no confidence in the First Minister, I wonder if he really believes he is worth such a salary.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I work as hard as I can every day to attend to the needs of the people in Wales. I understand that the Member has a great deal of difficulty in understanding the difference between what is possible for Wales and what is possible elsewhere. I see, in his last contribution—. My attention was drawn to his contribution on 24 June, when he said,
'we know that Mark Drakeford didn't even attend COBRA meetings for several weeks, when he was able to do so.'
Llywydd, maybe I'll put on record, because I'm sure the Member wouldn't intentionally wish to mislead people, that there is not a single COBRA meeting—to which I had been invited—that I did not attend.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Could I put on record my thanks as well to the Commission staff and to yourself as Presiding Officer for making these facilities available today for the first hybrid Assembly?
First Minister, the economies of south Wales are very intertwined, and the news yesterday about the the Ineos reconsideration—shall we call it—of their proposals in Bridgendaffects South Wales Central and, in particular, the Vale of Glamorgan, where there's a lot of transit back and forth for jobs. Can you clarify exactly what is going on with the proposal? As I understand it, Ineos have put a halt on consideration of advancing the project at the moment, but they haven't actually stopped the project. And comments about not trusting the company are deeply unhelpful from the constituency MS, who was on telly last night saying such things. Surely, we should be working night and day to convince Ineos that Bridgend and the wider south Wales economy are an ideal home for their ambitious proposals for this new facility.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. I want to say to him that the Welsh Government and the contractors we have employed have worked tirelessly to ensure that the site was made ready in line with Ineos's tight timescales and that that work continued despite flooding earlier in the year and the coronavirus crisis. So, we have worked really hard to try to meet the requirements that the company had laid out. So, we were inevitably disappointed, on 2 July, when officials were told—not Ministers; officials were told—that the company intended to suspend its plans for investment in Wales and in Portugal, pending a review. The company was due to sign an important agreement with the Welsh Government on Monday of this week. It was very disappointing to us, after all the efforts that have been made, that that wasn't possible.
But, let me agree with what Andrew R.T. Davies has said: while there is a possibility that this company would yet come to Wales, we must work positively with them to make every argument to bring that about. My colleague Ken Skates spoke directly with the company on Monday evening, and I know that he made that point to them: that, despite our sense of disappointment, so very late in the day, to find that the company may be having second thoughts, anything we can still do to persuade them of the merits of coming to Bridgend and the outstanding workforce that is available to them there—we will never give up on making that case up until the point where that company makes a final determination.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, I've been in discussion with very many businesses in Cynon Valley who are extremely grateful for the financial support that they've received from the Welsh Government under the economic resilience fund. I note that, in order to access that fund, they need to sign up to the Welsh Government's economic contract. Would you be able to give us an assessment of how you think signing up to that economic contract will be of benefit, both to the economy and society of the South Wales Central region, moving forward?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Vikki Howells for that, Llywydd. I know that she will recognise that the incredible speed at which everything has had to happen during the coronavirus crisis means that the sort of detailed discussion of an economic contract that we would normally have with businesses hasn’t been possible.
Before the crisis hit, we had agreed economic contracts with 385 companies in Wales. Today, that's over 4,000 companies who have committed to the principles of the economic contract. And the principle is very important. It says to companies that when the Welsh public is finding money to support them in the work they do and to help them to sustain and create new jobs, the Welsh public is entitled to a return on that investment that goes beyond the interest of the company itself, and that there are important things that we want to create across Wales: a low-carbon future, increasing levels of investment in skills, and a fair-work approach to Wales. All of those things are important, and when we strike an economic contract with a company, it is those additional returns on the investment that the Welsh public is making that we seek to negotiate.
And the good news is, Llywydd, that companies in Wales very readily see the benefits of that. They too want a future in Wales that allows them to go on trading successfully in a country where we don't have low pay, where we don't have low skills, and where we are focused, as the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 requires us to be, on making decisions today that give those who come after us a proper chance of a successful future.

Question 4 [OQ55414] is withdrawn. Question 5—Rhun ap Iorwerth.

The Tourism Sector in North Wales

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on reopening the tourism sector in north Wales? OQ55437

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you for that question. Llywydd, lifting the stay local requirement allows people to travel around Wales. Outdoor visitor attractions can open, subject to strict social distancing and hygiene guidelines remaining in place. I have noted that self-contained accommodation and outdoor hospitality should prepare to reopen in the next week.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. There are two things I'd like to raise. First of all, an appeal once again for extending support to tourism and hospitality businesses. Losing so much of their season will mean that they will have already lost a great deal of their annual turnover, and time is short to make up for that, of course.
But the second point is on the nature of tourism. The First Minister will know, as do I, about the very real concern that exists about the return of tourism, because the threat of the virus has not disappeared. Therefore, I support a campaign on Anglesey, for example, to remind tourists to stick to those steps to safeguard communities and to respect the people around them. But I also think that now is an opportunity to reconsider the nature of the relationship between tourism and our communities in a more fundamental way. So, would the First Minister agree with me, and tourism representatives who I've been speaking to in my constituency, that we need to use this period to lay the foundations for a new kind of tourism, that gives greater ownership and control to the local level, which makes the sector more sustainable, which responds to local concerns about the impact of too much tourism, and ensures local benefits from tourism?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, may I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for that interesting question? And just to say in the first place that I acknowledge the fact that tourism is extremely important to the people of Ynys Môn. The reason why we have proceeded carefully, step by step, is to ensure that the sector will be ready to welcome visitors back safely, and doing that by taking the communities with us on that journey. And it's important that the industry works closely with the local people to prepare and to do it in a way where the voice of the local people impacts the nature of the industry. That's exactly what Rhun has said about the opportunity that presents itself for us to rethink all of this. It's important. And when I have had discussions with the group that we've convened—and I had the opportunity to do that recently on 18 June—one thing that struck me was the point that the people in the group raised that they are eager to use the opportunity that they have to recreate the relationship between people working in the field and people living locally. I agree with what Rhun ap Iorwerth was saying about optimising the opportunity that we have to do things together and cautiously over the ensuing weeks. Because if we do it successfully, there will be more that we can do to help the sector in the remaining season and to do more to support the sector by doing so.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First Minister, 24,000 people work in the manufacturing industry in food and drink, with around 230,000 employed in the wider supply chain. There are around 3,700 different Welsh food and drink producers on retail, and a vital stage is the hospitality sector. Will you consider reopening the hospitality sector indoors from 13 July, but more importantly, advise them of this now? If not, what do you say to the Welsh Independent Restaurant Collective, whose survey found that at least 30,000 job losses are expected in the sector and that nearly half of these have happened already? Could you explain to me how it is seen to be safe for children to be in classrooms eating their lunch but yet unsafe for adults to sit inside a restaurant? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think it's very easy to explain the difference: as far as I know, alcohol isn't being served in schools in Wales, whereas it would be in the context that the Member refers to. The idea that these things are somehow comparable is clearly nonsensical as soon as you begin to consider it. No, I won't be reopening indoor hospitality from 13 July, but I'm very glad indeed that we've been able to work with the sector and that outdoor hospitality will be reopening in Wales from that date. What we will then do is work with the sector to see that they make a success of that reopening, that they deliver on the many compensating measures that they have, I think, in a very committed and imaginative way, come forward with—measures to mitigate the impact of coronavirus—and provided we can see that that is being done successfully, then we will be able to move to reopening indoor hospitality.
What I think the Member never seems to grasp is that unless you're prepared to do this in a careful way, then people won't come back to use those facilities; people won't have the confidence to come back to restaurants and cafes and public houses in Wales unless they know that we have worked together to make those places safe. The weeks ahead in which the sector will deliver, I feel confident, on the promises it has made will be an investment in making sure that when we are able to move to indoor hospitality, people in Wales will have the confidence to return to it and that will have stood that sector and those businesses in very good stead.

The Northwood Hygiene Products Factory

Siân Gwenllian AC: 6. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's discussions regarding the 94 jobs that are under threat at the Northwood Hygiene Products factory in Penygroes in the Arfon constituency? OQ55424

Mark Drakeford AC: May I thank Siân Gwenllian for that question? Formal consultation on closure proposals for the Northwood factory ended on 4 July. Despite efforts by the local workers and management, Gwynedd Council and the Welsh Government, the company has decided to go ahead with closure plans. Efforts now turn to supporting staff and seeking alternative investment for the site.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I thank your Government for being so willing to provide assistance and to support the alternative proposal by the workforce in Penygroes, but unfortunately, as you have said, the company has rejected that opportunity for commercial reasons and they are making the 94 staff redundant, which is a huge blow. But we must continue to seek to find alternative use for the site. So, thank you for giving the assurance that your Government officials will continue to work with Gwynedd Council and others to look at the options available, including attracting a new buyer for the site. Ninety-four jobs in Dyffryn Nantlle would equate to thousands of jobs in more highly populated areas of Wales and deserve the same effort and the same attention from your Government as we seek a way forward.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you, Siân Gwenllian. I acknowledge the point that she makes about the impact of the loss of 94 jobs in a place such as Nantlle Vale, and the closure of the plant is a very big blow for the workforce and the community. And as Siân Gwenllian acknowledged, Welsh Government officials and the officers of Gwynedd Council have been working hard to try and defend those jobs, putting money on the table to try and support those workers that have been loyal to the company over a long period of time. But as Siân Gwenllian says, we must think together about how we can attract alternative investment into the site. Welsh Government is leading a regional remedial partnership, and we will be looking at the future of north Wales post COVID—the whole of north Wales—but also in the context that Siân Gwenllian's constituents will be facing after the decision to close the factory.

The Block Grant

Nick Ramsay AC: 7. Will the First Minister provide an update on the latest block grant drawn down from the UK Government? OQ55435

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. Alongside many Whitehall departments, the Welsh Government has drawn down repayable cash from the UK contingencies fund. In our case, £857 million has been used to front-load our actions to support businesses and public services in the face of the global coronavirus pandemic.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, First Minister. Apologies for the rather dry phrasing of the question, but you got my drift. First Minister, as you say, the UK Government has just signed off the draw-down of the £857 million and the Welsh Government budget has been significantly uplifted since the start of the pandemic, and rightly so. As the focus now turns to leaving lockdown and getting the economy moving again, will you look at providing support for the housing market and particularly first-time buyers? It's likely in the statement today that the Chancellor will be announcing a possible stamp duty holiday—certainly stamp duty relief for buyers. Is that something you will be considering here? My colleague Laura Anne Jones in her question earlier spoke about possible distortions along the border with regard to COVID-19 processes. There would be no greater distortion than that to the housing market if there's greater relief provided for stamp duty in England than there is for land transaction tax here in Wales, so will you pledge to look at this?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, it's just important to say that the £857 million is repayable cash; it's not money that we can use to invest in Wales. And while I want to recognise the help we had through the Secretary of State and through the Treasury in securing that, let's put it in context: the Department of Health and Social Care in Whitehall has drawn down £25 billion of repayable cash from the contingencies fund, so we are rather at the small-change end of that market.
Llywydd, we will wait to see what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to say today. Our stamp duty, our land transaction tax regime in Wales, already absolves far, far more people from paying that tax in Wales than would be the case across our border, so if the Member would want to regard that as a distortion, then it is a distortion very much in favour of his constituents in living this side of the border. But what we've learnt, Llywydd, over many years, is never to rely on the headlines that the Treasury trail in advance of any statement. We will wait to hear what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to say. We will look at ways in which Wales will lose money as well as ways in which we may gain, and then the Cabinet here will come to a set of conclusions based in the round on the impact of any changes that may be announced today on the budget and on policies here in Wales.

And, finally, question 8—Jenny Rathbone.

Health Inequalities

Jenny Rathbone AC: 8. What action is the Welsh Government planning to take to tackle the underlying health inequalities that have made some citizens more vulnerable to COVID-19 than others? OQ55434

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank the Member for that very important question? The Welsh Government continues to do everything we can to address the unacceptable inequalities in health outcomes between Wales's most and least deprived communities, and as we have seen in the COVID context for the black, Asian, minority ethnic communityin particular. Reducing inequality is a central ambition of 'Prosperity for All' and lies at the heart of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, First Minister. At the root of this problem is poor diet. We know that the food manufacturers spend billions of pounds encouraging people to eat processed food high in fat, sugar and salt, and that this obviously is not nourishing and it leads to obesity, which then leads to diabetes, heart disease and, indeed, cancer, and now COVID-19. So, I wonder what measures the Government is considering to transform the food system that is blighting our lives, not just to improve breastfeeding and weaning, but also compliance with healthy food regulations in schools and tackle the multimillion pound advertising by the food industry, which encourages people to eat the wrong things? When did you last see an advert for vegetables?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me agree with Jenny Rathbone that poor diet is the product of poverty, and it is families who cannot afford to buy a diet that is balanced and has the variety in it that others of us are able to take for granted that leads to obesity in those families. We are engaging a whole series of different measures to try and address that. Not all the levers are in our own hands. The UK Government carried out a consultation on advertising earlier last year, and in our contribution to that consultation, we urged the UK Government to be more mandatory in its approach, not simply to advise companies on best practice, but to require advertising not to be aimed, for example, at children or around schools. We are considering the report issued by the House of Lords Select Committee on Food, Poverty, Health and the Environment released on 6 July, called 'Hungry for change: fixing the failures in food', and that does indeed highlight a series of issues that the Member herself has just drawn to our attention. There are a number of recommendations in that report that we will want to draw on in the work that we will do here in Wales as part of our own consultation over the autumn period on the Wales food environment, which is planned by my colleague Vaughan Gething.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The business statement and announcement is next, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to today's agenda. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar. Darren's unusually quiet. [Laughter.] Darren? Darren Millar, can you—?

Darren Millar AC: Pardon me. Diolch, Llywydd. Can I call for two statements today, please, Trefnydd? Can I have a statement from the Minister responsible for the armed forces on the future of the armed forces liaison officers that we have in Wales? The Minister will be aware of the good work that these officers have done since they were appointed in terms of trying to ensure that the armed forces covenant is implemented at all levels across Wales, but the funding for these posts comes to an end in March of next year, and I'm very keen to make sure that they are retained for the future. So, I would be grateful if you could arrange for a statement on that matter as soon as possible.
In addition, can I call for a statement as soon as possible on land transaction tax? It's widely anticipated that there's going to be a holiday for stamp duty payments in Wales—in England rather, up to the value of £500,000. We need to get the property market moving again here in Wales as soon as possible. It's a good indicator of economic health. And I would be grateful to know whether the Welsh Government plans to also introduce a holiday for land transaction tax in order to support the property market here, if such a measure is announced in England. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Darren Millar for raising both of those issues, and, yes, I do recognise the good work of the armed forces liaison officers. As Darren says, the funding is there for them until the end of this Assembly term, or certainly until the end of this financial year, and that particular service, alongside all others, will be part of the discussions that we have leading up to our setting of the budget for the next financial year. And, of course, we have the opportunity to debate this in some depth in the debate that the Finance Committee has brought forward for next week's Plenary session.
On the matter of land transaction tax, I'm very keen to hear what the Chancellor has to say in his summer economic update just shortly this afternoon. Obviously, there are things that I'm very keen to hear him talk about, in terms of support for the economy, for young people and so forth. I will release a statement by the end of the day setting out my overall response to his statement. Then, in terms of any detailed decisions that I am then to take on the wide range of issues, I will do so in due course, but, clearly, I would want to make early statements on all things of importance.

Leanne Wood AC: I'd like to request two statements from the Trefnydd today. I'd be grateful if time could be found for a statement from the health Minister on the question of political accountability and answerability. I'd like to hear his views on his own role in determining which vital services are available in which parts of Wales, particularly in relation to the recent news that the 24-hour consultant-led accident and emergency service at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital is to be retained. Did he play a part in that decision? What role does he now have in the recruitment of consultants, which is a key issue for the plan to work? What is the status of the south Wales programme, which was a key driver in the decision to, previously, close the A&E department? And also, what was his role in the decision to pay a six-figure sum to the former chief executive of Cwm Taf health board after she resigned in the aftermath of the maternity services scandal? I'm sure Members will agree that these issues of accountability deserve our scrutiny, and that the people who've been affected by thesedecisions deserve political accountability too.
I'd also like to raise the matter of flooding. In England—

You're out of time, Leanne Wood. I'm going to ask the Trefnydd to respond.

Rebecca Evans AC: Those are detailed questions, which I know the Member will want to raise directly with the health Minister. Of course, the health Minister does have oral questions this afternoon, which might be an opportunity to begin to discuss some of those questions.

David J Rowlands AC: Would the Minister make a statement on the decision of Ineos to locate the manufacturing of the new model in France, rather than its initial announcement of Bridgend, given that this announcement is a devastating blow both to Bridgend and Wales? I understand that Ineos has entered talks with Mercedes-Benz for the acquisition of a site in Moselle in France. As the Ineos project was secured with a significant financial package from both the Welsh Government and the UK Government's Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, could the Minister outline the possible options now open to the Welsh Government, either to reinstate the earlier situation or to recover the funds invested thus far?

Rebecca Evans AC: We were shocked and very disappointed by the way in which the news was relayed to officials following all of the hard work and the relationship, I think, that has been built up over a number of years. Welsh Government and our contractors have worked tirelessly to ensure that the site was ready, in line with Ineos's tight timescales, despite both the flood and COVID-19. There'll be an opportunity to pursue these issues in more depth in the topical question, which has been accepted by the Llywydd, from Carwyn Jones. He will be asking that this afternoon to the Minister for economy.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, you will have seen press reports today that free NHS parking introduced in England at the start of the coronavirus emergency by the UK Government is going to be withdrawn. Can the Minister confirm today, in order to avoid the need for a statement, that the Welsh Government has no intention of changing its long-standing commitment to providing free parking for staff, patients and visitors in Welsh NHS locations?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very happy to provide that reassurance that we have no plans whatsoever to change our approach to free parking for staff, visitors and patients at hospitals here in Wales, which was, of course, a policy that we introduced back in 2008. We're very keen to see that policy continue.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Leader of the house, could I seek two statements, please? Yesterday, the health Minister wrote off the deficits of the health boards. I am amazed, unless it has come in the last hour, that we, as Members, haven't had a statement on this—it was announced in the press conference yesterday. That surely cannot be right. I make no judgment call on the write-down, but£0.5 billion-worth of debt was written off yesterday. It is our role to probe that and test it, and also wonder whether the Government is going to write deficits off in local authorities—[Inaudible.]—or other public bodies. But, in the absence of any form of statement other than the press statement yesterday, we are unable to do that. So, could I implore you to seek that statement? I shouldn't have to implore you, but could I ask you to make that statement available to Members so we can understand exactly the implications for it?
And secondly, could I also, via your role as finance Minister, seek a statement from your good self as to the use of the furlough scheme by public bodies in Wales? Obviously, public bodies have had cost pressures. The furlough scheme has protected many jobs across all sectors, but many of the public bodies would have already received money in the budget settlements for this year to cover those jobs, instead of having two draw-downs of public money and using the furlough scheme as well. I'm led to believe some local authorities have put as many as 500 workers on the furlough scheme whilst receiving that money in their settlement from you as finance Minister, part of the Welsh Government. So, could I have a statement to elaborate on your understanding of the use of the furlough scheme in the public sector?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for raising both of those issues. Again, as I mentioned previously, the health Minister does have questions today, so there'll be opportunities to discuss your particular question regarding the write-off of the deficits of the health boards. But, again, I'll have the opportunity to speak to the health Minister myself and relay that request for the statement on that particular matter.FootnoteLink
And then, on the furlough scheme, there is guidance from the UK Government in terms of in what circumstances furlough should be used by public sector bodies. It should only be used in relatively few circumstances in Wales, and I think that has been genuinely the case. So, for example, local authorities who haven't been able to redeploy staff into other roles have been able to use it, but it has been used on a relatively small number of occasions. But I'm happy to write to you with some further detail on that.

Information further to Plenary

Siân Gwenllian AC: May I ask for a statement from the Deputy Minister for children and social services on child play schemes for children over the summer months? Whilst welcoming the fact that there will be provision for vulnerable children, it's very disappointing that there won't be spaces available for the children of key workers. The work of these children's parents is still central to the efforts to put the health service back on its feet, and it's unfortunate, to say the least, that these children aren't included in the cohort of children that will have that summertime provision. So, I would like a statement to the end that this cohort will be included. We're not talking about huge sums of money here.

Rebecca Evans AC: I know that there was a statement issued earlier on this week that set out some of the parameters for the childcare and play provision that will be provided over the summer, but I will make sure that today I do have the opportunity to speak to the Deputy Minister and ensure that she is aware of that request for a statement specifically regarding the children of key workers over the summer.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Business Minister, by September, our children will have had no more than three days in school in six months. Not only is their education suffering but their mental and physical health too. Vulnerable children are falling behind in key skills, and, if our children don't go back fully in September, then potentially parents might lose some of their jobs too, because they won't be able to go back to work. Schools now just have days before the end of the summer term to plan for the autumn term. We've been in the dark too long here in Wales. So, therefore, can the education Minister please bring forward a clear statement as soon as possible setting out what schooling will look like in September?

Rebecca Evans AC: I take this opportunity to welcome Laura Anne to the Senedd—or, back to the Senedd, I should say—and look forward to your contributions in the business statement.
I know that the Minister has been working really hard with the education sector, local authorities, trade unions and so forth to plot out the way forward in terms of returning to schools. Of course, Wales is the only part of the UK that has ensured that every child will have the opportunity to return to the classroom for at least some time before the summer holidays, which I think is important in terms of reconnecting and re-establishing those relationships. The Minister has questions next this afternoon, and I know that she is keen to keep colleagues as informed as possible about plans for September.

Neil McEvoy AC: I'd like a statement from the Minister for children. I had a meeting recently, the other day, on Zoom with a number of mothers, with a grandmother and one father, and all the children were in care. The common issue is that the reports that are put before courts to enable children to be taken into care are inaccurate, time after time after time. I've seen the inaccuracies; they're not picked up in the system, children are taken into care, which explains, to my mind, the big difference between the amount of children in care in Wales and those in England. So, my question and the purpose of the statement is: what can be done in terms of policy by the Minister to ensure that these reports, which have a huge effect on people's lives—? I was talking to mothers absolutely destroyed the other day online. What can be done to ensure that inaccuracies are corrected before the children are taken into care?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, the matter that Neil McEvoy raises is clearly very serious in terms of ensuring that accurate information is presented in these extremely important cases. So, can I invite him to write to the Minister with some more detail about his experiences and the discussions that he had in his call with mothers and with grandparents in order to better understand the issues that he describes?

David Melding.

David Melding AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm very grateful that you've been able to call me. Business Minister, can I call for a debate in Government time on the Cumberlege review, which is published today under the title 'First Do No Harm'? I just remind Members that it's about the use of various medical treatments and implants, such as mesh implants. And, although commissioned by the UK Government, it did have the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government as stakeholders and there was a patient event held in Cardiff. It has revealed many things that require, I think, full debate, especially the whole issue of the equal access that women have to health services that are fit for purpose, and one of the report's main conclusions is that we need a patient safety commissioner. These are hugely important issues. I'm sure that I'm not the only Member who has already received correspondence from constituents asking for this report's recommendations to be thoroughly examined by Welsh Government and by us here in the Senedd. So, could we have a debate, please, in Government time, as soon as possible?

Rebecca Evans AC: This is indeed a really serious report, with some important conclusions. I know that the health Minister has welcomed the review team's report, which, as David Melding says, is primarily relating to England, but it will certainly have implications for clinical practice here in Wales. I know that the Minister intends to carefully assess the recommendations and the conclusions in relation to current practice here in Wales, and then he will consider whether they should be adopted by the NHS in Wales before he will issue his response.But he is very familiar with the report and he welcomes the work behind it.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Questions to the Minister for Education

The next item is questions to the Minister for Education, and the first question is from Joyce Watson.

School Activities

Joyce Watson AC: 1. What assessment has the Minister made of last week's increase in school activities? OQ55427

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Joyce. The immediate feedback received from key stakeholders, parents and learners is overwhelmingly positive. The opportunity for school staff to catch up with their learners has been very much welcomed. Good practice and evidence from this current period of operations is helping inform schools' operations for the future.

Joyce Watson AC: I'm really proud that I'm able to stand here today and say that children in Wales have had an opportunity to go to school before people had the same opportunity to go to a pub. I think it actually does say something about the priorities here in Wales. I, like you, share my appreciation of all those people who've come together in the joint efforts to make that happen, and I want to thank all those, here today, on behalf of all those parents.
As you say, this is an opportunity to check in and catch up, and these few weeks before the summer break are important for identifying logistical challenges. One of those logistical challenges in my region will be transport to school. So, can we look forward to a statement in the near future about what has been learned, what's worked well and perhaps where we need to be next?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Joyce, especially for the recognition of the hard work that has gone into making these opportunities available for children in Wales. It has been a huge collective effort on behalf of all those involved. One of the reasons why we did want to provide these opportunities, above and beyond education, is precisely for the reasons that you have described—so we can get to grips with some of the really wicked logistical issues around a safe return to schools for pupils and members of staff—and, clearly, transport is one of those. I must say that the vast majority of local authorities across Wales during this period have been able to ensure that those children who need transport have been able to access transport, but there have been logistical issues, undoubtedly. Only last night I met with a significant number of council leaders and trade unions to discuss issues around education. Transport, of course, was raised, and we will be working with both directors of education and transport leads in all 22 local authorities to address these issues prior to the new academic year.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Education Minister, I recognise these are difficult decisions for the Government, but the Government must balance the harms and benefits of any policy. And although I see you're trying to keep our children safe, and respect that, obviously, it is, ironically, having an adverse effect on our children and they are suffering, which I've seen first hand, having a 10-year-old son of primary age myself.
As I said earlier in the Chamber, it's not just our children's education that is suffering, it's their mental, physical health and development. I ask you to look at how low the risk is with COVID-19 now and balance that with the harmful effect that not going back to school full time is having on our children. And although we welcome the opportunity in these three weeks for our children to go back for three days, unless all children go back to school in September, I'll be interested in hearing how you expect parents to look after their children, educate their children, and hold down jobs if this part-time learning carries on.
Even though there is very little time now for our schools to prepare to reopen, the Scottish Government has made it fully clear that they want to reopen in August fully. In Wales, teachers, pupils and parents, as I said before, have been in the dark too long. We need to know. Please can you tell us, Minister, when we can expect all children to return to school full time?

Kirsty Williams AC: I will be making a statement on the next stages of education for the children in Wales before the end of the week.
Oh, I should say—sorry, it's very rude of me—welcome back, Laura.

The Children of Key Workers

Russell George AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of education to the children of key workers? OQ55407

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Russell. On 3 June, I announced that all pupils in Wales, including the children of critical workers, would have the opportunity to check in, catch up and prepare for the summer and September from 29 June.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. That answer is clear in itself, but a constituent has relayed to me a concern that children of key workers who are attending the childcare hubs have also been restricted from attending the catch-up and check-in days, and this particular parent is concerned that children will not have the access to their usual teachers and peers, and that will impact also on their preparation for the following academic year. Can you, Minister, confirm whether schools should be ensuring that all children, including those of key workers, are able to catch up and check in with their teachers, and that should be the case before the summer holidays?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much for that, Russell. The requirement to try and limit the number of contacts that individual children have is one of the very wicked logistical issues that the current operations of schools have identified. This is particularly acute in the county of Powys, because a vast number of people living in Powys actually qualify as a critical worker, and the demand for critical worker care has increased hugely in recent weeks in the county of Powys. I'm very grateful, under the leadership of Lynette Lovell, the director of education of Powys, that Powys have been able to put on five additional childcare hubs during this period and are working very hard to ensure that those children who are attending those hubs are not disadvantaged in terms of their education and their ability to check in and to catch up.
Lynette is just one of those people that we need to say thank you to, Presiding Officer, as Joyce Watson did. As a former headteacher herself, and now a director, she has actually been manning some of those childcare hubs over the holidays and the bank holidays. It is that kind of commitment that we have seen the length and breadth of Wales that has ensured that our children of critical workers have been well looked after, allowing their parents to get on with their important work, and I commend the work of Powys County Council in that regard.

Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Like others, I'd like to put on record my gratitude to you and others who have made this session possible today.
Minister, people in Blaenau Gwent tell me that they have great confidence in your leadership in education, and they compare that with the shambles we've seen across the border. People tell me that they're very anxious now that they're able to continue to see this sort of leadership.
In terms of where we are at the moment, my concern is to ensure that we do have the educational facilities and provision in place for all children, and that includes children with additional learning needs. I've been very concerned that we don't have in all places the coverage that we require to ensure that some of our most vulnerable children, and children who do require additional support in learning, have that, both within the hub models that we've seen recently, but also as we move back to the blended learning that you have described in recent statements. I understand that you're making a statement today and later in the week about the sort of framework and structures we will have in September, and I'd like to ask you, Minister, to ensure that children with additional learning needs are at the centre of your thoughts.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Alun, for that. This period of disruption to children's education as a result of the pandemic has been a particular challenge for those children with additional learning needs. Many of our local authorities have actually been able to keep their special schools open throughout this entire period to support those families, especially if those children have very advanced and very specific needs, but I am aware, in other local authority areas, that service has not been universally available.
As we move towards next steps in education in Wales, we will be paying particular attention to the support needs of children with additional learning needs. I hope to be able also to make a statement shortly on what we can do to address the impact that this period of disruption has had, and clearly, children with an additional learning need will be a priority part of the cohort that we will be looking to support as we move forward.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister.

Suzy Davies AC: Can I just add my voice to those who have congratulated schools and the teachers, the staff, as well as parents and families, and indeed some council officials as well, who contributed to being able to open schools in these last couple of weeks, and particularly those who are determined to go for that fourth week?
I'd like to begin today, though, with the questions that have been raised by the Children's Commissioner for Wales regarding a child's right to education, generally, and perhaps you can tell us whether your policies and regulations have been subject to child rights impact assessments. But I particularly wanted to focus on her urging you to be clear about your plans for September. I've heard what you've said to others in the Chamber today, but Welsh schools and councils have seen that the other three nations of the UK have already published their guidance for next term. Yesterday, in the Children, Young People and Education Committee, you told us that you were waiting for the latest science on transmission of COVID-19 before you published your guidance, although I do believe that a draft was being considered by stakeholders before that. Did you request the report on that science or was it due anyway, and did you anticipate it making a material difference to the guidance you'd already prepared and circulated in draft? If yes, why was the middle tier still looking over a draft on Monday, and if no, why not publish that guidance earlier, duly caveated for some minor changes, so that schools and councils could get on with at least some preparation, knowing that their time to act is now so short?

Kirsty Williams AC: Firstly, my understanding is that despite the fact that there has been an announcement in Scotland of all children returning to school with no social distancing in August, no guidance has actually been produced by the Scottish Government to support that decision. That reflects the very complex issues that myself and Ministers across the United Kingdom are grappling with, especially as the science and the understanding of how the disease behaves continue to evolve.
We had some notice that new scientific papers were being made available to the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies at the end of this week. We requested that those papers be sent to Welsh Government as early as possible, so that they could be figured into our planning. I did not want to make a statement and then to have that overtaken by events should then further science become available. I think it's really important that we build confidence amongst staff and, crucially, parents that we are acting on the very latest scientific advice.
Throughout this process we have said that our aim would be to maximise face-to-face contact for our children and to minimise disruption, and I know that schools have prepared operational guidance for a range of scenarios, and those plans will have to be kept under review regardless of what statement I am able to make by the end of this week, because how the disease behaves in our community is key to unlocking educational opportunities for children. I can assure the Member that decisions taken within the department are subject to an integrated rights assessment.

Suzy Davies AC: Okay, that's an interesting comment, that last one, because certainly my understanding is that various regulations that have come through a different committee haven't necessarily had those rights assessments.
I wonder if you can help us on a similar issue, which is to do with blended learning, because there's some confusion about whether September will be a blended learning environment or not. My understanding is that you have brought some clarity to this by saying that face-to-face teaching, when children return in September, is what you're aiming for, and I'm hoping that that will reassure some worried parents. You're looking at it perhaps more as an additional tool, with it maybe in some individual cases meeting a child's needs better than school attendance alone.
Your officials told us yesterday that teachers are unfamiliar with this way of teaching, but have benefited very recently from advice based on information gathered by the consortia, which is some encouragement here I think, but my understanding is that that data gathering on what schools were doing since March was only really begun at the tail end of May, when consortia were prompted to do that work with their reports then being sent to you by 19 June, over two weeks ago. This has been quite a long period of time now, so I think you should be in a position to tell us today what those reports have told you not just about the quantity, but the quality of the offer being made by individual schools, the feedback from schools to pupils in terms of their learning as well as their well-being, and the speed at which schools have been able to identify and then address gaps in what they were doing as best they possibly could in their current circumstances.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you for that, Suzy. I believe that blended learning will continue to play a part in Welsh education in a number of ways, but clearly, as you have quite rightly stated, my aim is to maximise face-to-face contact with children in their schools with their teachers, but we must capture the positives of the crisis that we have found ourselves in, and for some staff, and indeed for some children, the blended learning approach or distance learning approach actually has been beneficial to them. It builds, of course, on the important work that we have in the e-school project, something that the Presiding Officer will be very familiar with. That blended learning approach helps us overcome some of the logistical disadvantages children, especially in rural areas, may face because they find themselves in small classes. So, we need to capture the good that has come out of this crisis and which will help us inform policy as we go forward, and for some children, especially for those children perhaps who find school difficult or challenging, actually supporting their learning in a variety of ways is really important as we go forward.
I am very keen to understand what has been happening in individual schools. I have been very blunt about this: there has been a mixed performance. Some schools have been able to grasp this challenge better than others, and indeed some families have been able to interact with their schools better than others. As we discussed in the committee yesterday, we have tried to take very positive steps, successful steps, with regard to digital disadvantage, and good practice on behalf of teaching has been supported by guidance around continuity of learning from the Government, and that good practice that has been gleaned by both Estyn and the regional consortia is now being used to inform best practice across schools. We have also been able to provide, via the regional consortia, training for staff to get to grips with and to be able to use our digital learning platform Hwb to its greatest degree. Because of the situation that Anglesey found itself in, for instance, I was able to meet recently with the headteacher representatives of Ynys Môn, and they said that they had benefited hugely from the webinars and professional training that Welsh Government and the GwE consortium had made available to their staff to be able to support blended learning and distance learning to best effect.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that answer. I think there'll probably be some supply teachers in Ynys Môn who would like to speak to you as well. I think there's no doubt, is there, that teachers and school staff, and parents and pupils, have really risen to this challenge over the last few months, but everybody's now pretty much at the limits of their patience, as we've already heard. What I would say is that I don't think that teachers, schools and school staff in particular should have been alone in this. The consortia's role to support school improvement hasn't gone away during this period, and however off-curriculum we've been and however different the experience of having parents play this much greater role in providing education has been, there's no reason to abandon completely all attention to standards. I've been just a little bit concerned about the lateness to the game of consortia and local authority officers who have a role in school improvement here. Can you tell me exactly what they've been doing proactively during this period, not just in the last couple of weeks, to support schools to be the best they can during the turbulence of this period?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, I've just given you an example in the GwE constituency, where they have been providing online professional learning opportunities to staff across the north Wales area so that they can use Hwb, our digital learning platform, to best effect. In my own local area, if we turn to the role of a local authority, Powys County Council took the Welsh Government's continuity of learning plan, adapted that for the context of Powys, and have been supporting schools in the delivery of that plan. Other regional consortia, again, have been proactive in supporting schools, gathering information and providing professional learning opportunities. And should I also say that I am aware of consortia staff, with the appropriate clearance and experience, who have actually been working in our childcare hubs, too. So they have been playing their part in supporting education at this time.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and I thank the education Minister for being willing to meet virtually on a weekly basis during this time of crisis. It's been most beneficial that we've been able to have those meetings and to have that discussion.
Forgive me, but I am going to return to the issue of schools in September, because this is something that is very much alive in the minds of headteachers, parents and children and young people, too, in terms of what exactly will be happening in September. If it's safe, of course, I'm sure we're all agreed that the best thing for our children and young people is that the schools should reopen fully. I think if we have learned anything during this period, we have learned that the relationship between pupil and child in the classroom is so, so very valuable, and that all the efforts to create online education cannot replace that crucial relationship, although it does have a central role, of course.
In committee yesterday, you said that there will be an announcement this week as to what arrangements you expect to be in place in September, but you also said that you'd held back from making any announcement because the science is evolving. And yes, it is evolving, of course, but it is evolving in Scotland and Northern Ireland too, and they have been able to make announcements. Contrary to what you said in response to Suzy Davies, Scotland has published guidance. On 21 May, they stated that their schools would reopen on 11 August, and then they published guidance on 28 May. And Northern Ireland, on 18 June, stated that their schools would reopen gradually from 24 August onwards, and guidance was published on 19 June. Now, I accept that we don't want to follow other countries' leads and that we can make our own decisions here, but what's different in terms of the evolving science here and the nature of the spread of the virus here as compared with those other nations?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, first of all, Siân, can I say I'm grateful to you and Suzy Davies for the opportunity, as you said, usually on a weekly basis, to be able to touch base and for your continuing to hold my feet to the fire?
I'm not aware of the scientific papers that have been perused by my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland or England that led them to make those statements. Throughout this period, we have been guided by the science. It's really important that we do that to build confidence amongst staff and parents. It's that science that has led us in Wales to be able to do something completely different to what's happened in Northern Ireland or Scotland, recognising that their term dates are different and therefore it's been more challenging for them, and different from what they've done in England. Alongside the science, we've also been able to reflect on the practice over the now week and a half of operations of schools to help us inform decision making going forward.
As I said, I'm not sure what other individual Ministers have read before they've made the announcement that they have, but I was absolutely determined that we would make a decision based on the very latest scientific advice and on the experience of this period of education where we have more children in our schools. Clearly, as you say, I will make a statement later this week. That statement will have to be kept under review and we will have to have regular check-in points, because, as we have seen here in Wales, the disease can pop up and interrupt plans that have been carefully laid and prepared for, as in the case, for instance, in Ynys Môn. But the statement will be made later this week.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Headteachers will be pleased to hear that there is information on its way, but it's very late in the day; the schools only have a week left to prepare. Looking forward to September, what will your plans be in order to ensure that the attainment gap doesn't widen as a result of this crisis? Will the funding announced by the UK Government Prime Minister be spent on a mitigation programme? Plaid Cymru published a plan some weeks ago that would include employing more teachers and attracting recently retired teachers back into schools. So, what will your aim be for children and young people who haven't been supported during the pandemic, namely those who are most disadvantaged and therefore face the greatest challenge? What exactly are your plans for that cohort of children?

Kirsty Williams AC: You're correct to say that the Westminster Government have announced a £1 billion catch-up programme. I need to make sure that Members are aware that not all of that is new money, and we have been advised as a Welsh Government that, in this financial year, we could expect a consequential up to and no more, at best, than £30 million. The rest of the money that was announced is for the new financial year and is not available to the Welsh Government at this time. So, I just want to be clear about the parameters in which we are working.
As I think I said earlier, I hope to be in a position—again, by the end of this week—to outline a distinctly Welsh approach to mitigating the impact that the disease has had on our children's education. There are specific parts of the cohort that we know that this period of disruption has been particularly challenging for. We talked about children with additional learning need earlier. Obviously, those children from a disadvantaged economic background, we're always worried about the attainment gap for those particular children. So, we're looking to make it a school-based programme, which is very different from the approach taken in England where there is an emphasis on employing private tutors. I think any particular programme to support children's learning needs to be on the basis of those professionals that work with them day in, day out, know them best and can deal with the circumstances that those children find themselves in.
What's crucial about the time that children are spending in school at the moment is that that work is already beginning to be done to identify what the impact of this period of disruption has been on children, and for teachers to begin to plan for what they need to do next to move children along. For some children, it will be content that will be the main priority; for other children, it will be addressing their emotional health and well-being. This has been a deeply troubling time for all of us. Some of us will have lost friends or relatives, and will have known people who've been really, really unwell, and if that's true of us, then, of course, it will be true of our children. And making sure that our children are in a position to learn and to re-engage with their education is really, really important. That's why it's important that we took the step to give every child—not specific year groups, but every child—the chance to go back to school before September.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you. Thirty million isn't going to go particularly far, despite some major announcements made by the Tories in England recently. Now, the digital divide is another issue that has emerged during the pandemic—the digital disadvantage that certain students and pupils have faced in terms of devices and connectivity. One survey that I’ve seen recently from the Llandrillo Menai Group demonstrates that 30 per cent of students felt that they were disadvantaged—that they weren’t able to have adequate access to distance learning in order to complete their studies, as the equipment or the broadband, or both, wasn’t available to them. Now, 30 per cent of young people means a high number of young people if you were to apply that across Wales. And I wonder whether a similar survey among higher education students would show the same types of theme, or does this highlight the cinderella status of further education in Wales? So, I would like to know what your plans are to bridge that digital divide in the FE sector particularly.

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, you're right—it is one of the barriers to learning during this period that has been for those children who are digitally excluded, who don't either have a device, a suitable device, or, indeed, connectivity at home. That's why we've spent £3 million on trying to address that situation. I'm very grateful to colleagues in local government who have worked in partnership with us to give out over 10,000 pieces of equipment, and over 10,000 MiFi devices. Again, this is a record I think we can be proud of in Wales, compared to the ability to get kit out of the door in other nations, where they have struggled to do so. We have lent kit that's already in schools rather than going to the market to buy new, because we knew everybody else was going to the market to buy new, and that would lead to significant delays in getting the children what they needed. We will now replace that kit that has been lent to children—given to children—with new kit for their schools.
We are currently discussing plans with the FE sector to see whether a similar situation and a similar level of support can be put in place for FE. But, again, I would commend the work of ColegauCymru's members, who have done exceptional work in making sure that those students in FE in danger of being digitally excluded have been able to receive support. And whilst, quite understandably, we talk a lot about schools going back, FE colleges are also back working, and they have a particular emphasis on connecting with our most vulnerable students—those are exactly the students that you've talked about, Siân, for whom perhaps distance learning has been a particular challenge—and that is going, I understand, very well.

Welsh-medium Education Provision

Delyth Jewell AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's plans to expand Welsh-medium education provision in the Merthyr Tydfil area? OQ55422

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Delyth, for the question.

Kirsty Williams AC: Capital investment of £1.83 million has been earmarked to expand Welsh-medium education provision in Merthyr Tydfil. We are meeting the full costs of these projects to make best use of the funding available. The authority has also received £661,000 from the reducing infant class size grant, also to support Welsh-medium education.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. Rhieni Dros Addysg Gymraeghave been in touch with me on their campaign to tackle the lack of Welsh-medium provision in the area. At the moment, there are only two primary schools and no secondary school at all, which is utterly unfair on the children in the area. RhAG want to see a Welsh-medium secondary school established, as well as an additional primary school. Since they started their campaign less than a year ago, they have made large steps forward. Discussions with the council on opening a new primary school have been positive. The Welsh-medium education forum has met virtually during the lockdown, and plans are in place to produce material to promote Welsh-medium education among parents, as well as to organise events. So, Minister, will you join with me in congratulating RhAG on their excellent work to date, as well as Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council for showing enthusiasm in assisting the campaign? Can you give me an assurance that you, as Minister for Education, will provide all possible support in order to enable RhAG and the council to open Welsh-medium schools in Merthyr?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Delyth. As I said in my answer to your first question, the Welsh Government is funding fully the projects that the Member will be familiar with. The grant of £1.83 million will support the reconfiguration of Ysgol Rhyd-y-grug to accommodate two additional classrooms and to increase nursery and pre-nursery provision. And the grant will also fund a new Welsh-medium primary school with a capacity for 210 pupils, also providing an early years and early childcare location through the medium of Welsh. Also, the reducing infant class sizes grant has been allocated to Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Santes Tudful to provide a stand-alone extension to two additional classrooms, including new lobby and toilet facilities also, and the old demountable accommodation will be removed to create an external play area to support the foundation phase.
So, clearly, the capital grants that Welsh Government are able to give Merthyr Tydfil are really going to make a difference, and I'm grateful to all of those campaigning within Merthyr and the council for engaging so positively with our capital programme to make these projects available, and I'm sure, as we have seen from other areas in Wales, once they are available, parents will make a very positive choice to choose Welsh-medium education for their children.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, we must ensure that our ambitious Welsh language targets in Merthyr Tydfil and across Wales are accomplished, and it's important that the benefit of Welsh-medium education is given to all children in all communities. May I, therefore, ask whether the Minister will give Bridgend council further support, as important land developments have fallen through and impacted their plans? It's possible that they might need a bit more support to attain the ambitious targets in Bridgend, while working also with groups such as Bridgend RhAG.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Huw, for that. Can I assure Members that we have developed a dashboard to give an overview of the situation across all local authorities following COVID-19, and the dashboard highlights that local authorities are on track to meet their Welsh in education strategic plan targets. Clearly, if there are concerns about the ability of an individual local authority to meet their targets contained within their WESP, then our officials will want to have a conversation with them to understand what the barriers are to achieving the goals that have been set out in those plans.

The Resumption of Full-time Education

Andrew RT Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's plans for the resumption of full-time education in September? OQ55397

Kirsty Williams AC: Since 29 June, our learners have been taking the opportunity to check in, catch up and prepare for the autumn term. Working with stakeholders, we are developing robust plans for children’s return to school in September, and, as I have said on numerous occasions this afternoon, Presiding Officer, I intend to make a statement later on this week outlining my plans.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer, and I appreciate you've answered other questions on this particular area, but I think it shows the sign of correspondence we're all getting from worried parents, teachers and also children who want to understand what the position will be in September. I know you are engaged in that process, Minister, but given the confusion around the previous announcements of the partial opening of schools, the chief medical officer's comments, for example, and the unions' comments, can you convince us that this will be a joined-up announcement that you will be making later in the week to give complete clarity so that people can have confidence that there will be full-time education in September? Because, with the ending of the furlough scheme and the economic pressures that families are facing, it might well boil down to the fact that people will have to think of food over fractions if they don't have full-time education in September. And I hope that you will give us confidence today that that is the direction of travel that you are undertaking for the September opening of schools.

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Presiding Officer, I understand that children, parents and professionals want to know more about what we can expect in September. We are undertaking those discussions, as the Member alluded to. Sometimes these discussions are complicated by the way in which our education system is structured in Wales, which means there are many, many stakeholders that need to be engaged before we can make an announcement, but I'm absolutely clear, and I have been throughout this process, that I am determined to maximise the opportunities for our children's education and to minimise the impact that this disease has had on it. We need to balance the risks—the risks to children and the staff that work with them—from COVID-19. But, luckily, because of the hard work and the efforts of the Welsh public, in beginning to drive that community transmission rate down, we now also need to figure in the non-COVID risks to our children from a prolonged period away from education. And because of the hard work of the Welsh public, we're in a position to be able to do that.

Mandy Jones AC: Minister, I'm hearing from distressed parents who have distressed children who want and need to know that they will be going back to school full time in September. Parents living on the Welsh-English border are even considering sending their children to English schools in September. What do you say to those parents? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Mandy, I am a parent that lives in a constituency on the Welsh-English border. Yesterday, my year 9 daughter was able to return to school for the second time. If I lived across that border, in Herefordshire, she would not set foot in a classroom until September. Let's be absolutely clear what the education system and the teachers and the headteachers and the support staff and our local authorities have been able to achieve in Wales: children living in your constituency that would not go to a classroom until September have been able to check in and catch up and begin to prepare. And I will continue to work with those hard-working educational professionals within our nation to maximise the opportunity for our children in September. Let's be very clear about the differences across the border. And I'm glad I'm this side.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, thank you for your answers to these questions. We now understand clearly that you are going to be making a statement on this issue. But, rightly so, parents are really anxious about this, there's no doubt about it, and they need clarity as soon as possible. Childcare needs to be arranged and there are many other aspects as well. So, following the statement later this week, will you confirm and commit today that any further announcements or information to parents will be given to them as a matter of urgency? Because constituents right across Alyn and Deeside and right across Wales need to know this as soon as possible, just to get their plans in place.

Kirsty Williams AC: Of course, Jack. I have endeavoured, throughout this entire period, to be as clear as I can be with educational professionals in Wales and with the parents of Wales. Sometimes that has not been easy, because of, sometimes, the lack of understanding, from especially aspects of the press, about discussions and announcements that have been made regarding other jurisdictions and the impact it has on Wales. We have used a variety of platforms and every opportunity to communicate with parents and, I can assure you, we will continue to do that.
The decisions I make are one important aspect, clearly, but unless we have the confidence of parents, so that they know that they can send their children into a safe and secure environment, they will not make that choice. I'm really pleased that, because we've been able to offer an opportunity to all children this side of summer, parents can see how safe and secure that their teachers and headteachers have been able to make their schools and, therefore, I hope that that will build confidence for whatever we're able to do in September.

Class Sizes

Neil McEvoy AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on class sizes in schools in Wales? OQ55411

Kirsty Williams AC: Reducing class sizes, targeted at those who will benefit the most, is a key action in 'Our national mission'. I have made available an additional £36 million over this Assembly term to reduce infant class sizes.

Neil McEvoy AC: Thanks, Minister. Crises bring opportunities and the most unfortunate circumstances can bring really positive change. The blended learning approach really is not going to work come the autumn, children are falling behind, not everybody is online and there is the issue of parents working. As a former teacher, I'm really aware of the enormous benefits of smaller class sizes: there's a different relationship in the classroom, there's more of a community, there's more time for children, one-on-one tuition becomes eminently possible. There's a reason why private schools offer small class sizes; we know that.
So, you're in a position now—you could usher in change with an aim to radically cut class sizes. A big-bang approach in this emergency, if you like: bringing in teachers who've left the profession, bringing people back in with the sole aim to enable a radical cut in class sizes to enable social distancing in schools and get schools back to work full time with pupils in school full time. Why not?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, as I made clear, I think, in my first answer, Presiding Officer, reducing class sizes has been a priority for me and this Government. We have invested in that, and that investment has led to an additional 110 extra teachers working in our schools, and an additional 45 teaching assistants. And in some places, it's not the staff that have been the constraint, it's the actual building, and therefore we have created an additional 52 classrooms. Clearly, as I said in answer to other questions, we will be looking to do what we can to support children at the next stage of their education, to overcome some of the deficits that will undoubtedly—undoubtedly—have occurred because of this disruption, and additional staff, I'm sure, will be an important part of that.

Personal Protective Equipment

Hefin David AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the use of personal protective equipment in schools? OQ55430

Kirsty Williams AC: It is essential that those who need personal protective equipment have access to it. Our guidance on increasing operations in schools sets out the use of PPE by practitioners and support staff within the education sector.

Hefin David AC: With regard to face masks, I note the answer that the First Minister gave earlier was that face covering is not of itself a magic bullet, and I suspect there are a number of concerns the Government has behind that. But I've been contacted by a Caerphilly resident who is concerned to not send her child back to school until she sees face masks more widely available, and particularly in a school setting. What reassurance can you give her today, and when will we have further information about PPE and face masks in school settings from September?

Kirsty Williams AC: There are only very, very specific circumstances where the Welsh Government advises that staff working in our schools should use a face mask. With regard to face coverings—because there is a significant difference between the two—we do not advise that face coverings are necessary within a school setting.

Educational Support

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on educational support for children who have not returned to school? OQ55418

Kirsty Williams AC: I think, Janet, as learners return to the physical school environment, practitioners will be providing a combination of approaches, especially for those children for whom, perhaps, a return to school is not recommended at this time.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch. In April, an extra £3 million was announced to support digitally excluded learners, yet I am aware of many parents who have waited all these months for a laptop. I've even had issues around the provision of a dongle. So, can you confirm whether all digitally excluded learners in Wales have now been provided with the technology they need, and how will you address the shortfall? Last month a survey report found that only 1.9 per cent of students received four lessons per day that only 1.9 per cent of students received four lessons per day. What steps have you taken to improve this? Then, on Monday, you did announce that £1 million has been allocated to support those children to re-engage with education over the summer holiday, especially those who have not been in school. But I do ask: how realistic is it to expect this of children over the summer break, especially when many have simply been unable to access online learning during the actual summer term? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Janet,as I said in answer to Siân Gwenllian, schools have distributed over 10,000 individual devices, and over—. Actually, Welsh Government has provided over 10,000 software licences that allows the equipment to be converted into what a child needs. Actually, the number goes above that, because individual schools had already proactively sent out a number of devices.
If you are in touch with parents who say that they have not been able to get a laptop or a Mi-Fi device, then I respectfully suggest to you, Janet, that they either need to speak to their headteacher, or to their local authority who have been charged with co-ordinating this scheme. It is simply impossible, from Cardiff Bay, or indeed a poorly connected home in Brecon, to oversee the individual distribution of these laptops. So, Janet, you really need to ask your local authority why there are children in your area that have not got the support that they need.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone—question 8.

The Delivery of Education

Jenny Rathbone AC: 8. What action is the Welsh Government taking to transform the delivery of education in school playgrounds and other outdoor settings in light of the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ55420

Kirsty Williams AC: We have published operational and learning guidance for schools and settings that sets out the physical, mental and educational benefits of outdoor learning and emphasises that they should maximise the time learners spend outdoors. The benefits of outdoor learning are particularly relevant in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Minister, for that. I'm glad that you recognise that this is a really important tool in the armoury for getting all children back to school where possible and really maximising those opportunities. So, I'm disappointed to report that, in at least one of my primary schools, children have only been offered four hours maximum over this three-week period, simply because they've been put in a bubble of five children—this in a school that has got very generous outdoor education. It doesn't appear that use of the school playgrounds has been properly factored into the planning of what they can offer their children, particularly where a child doesn't have any outdoor play space at home.
I just want to draw all our attention to the importance of the work that's being done in Denmark. Its seven-point plan on reopening schools in the middle of April just emphasised the importance of making outdoor education not just a nice-to-have but a regular part of lesson plans. I hear the naysayers who say, 'Well, our weather doesn't permit that', but no, absolutely not. This is all about having the right equipment. It doesn't matter whether it's rain, wind or snow: as long as children have the right equipment, and the teachers, it's perfectly possible to continue outdoor education at all times of the year.
In your decision framework for schools for the next stage of reopening, you mentioned Denmark, but only in the context of their use of other buildings to increase capacity, and that surprised me in light of the really successful work that Denmark has done on returning children to school. So, what plans does the Welsh Government have to transform the teaching of education in the outdoors as the safest way of beating transmission of the disease? And will you consider, in order to maximise the opportunities you talked about earlier, using the school holidays to offer crash courses to teachers in forest school training? Because it clearly is that some people are needing it.

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Jenny, I think access to outdoor learning, whether we find ourselves in a pandemic or not in a pandemic, has real benefits for children: for their mental health, for their physical health, for their ability to understand their environment and how important that is. I've been overwhelmed to see via social media the very innovative approaches that many schools have taken during this period to get children outdoors.
The guidance from Welsh Government clearly states that we are asking schools to offer a minimum of three sessions. Many have been able to offer more, but I do recognise that some schools feel that they've had particular constraints, although that often has more to do with the fact that they're balancing the childcare needs of vulnerable and critical worker children. But you're quite right. I'm not sure who said it, but somebody once said that there was no such thing as bad weather, there were just bad clothing choices, and clearly, in the foundation phase, you will find young children out every day in all weathers learning in that very active environment.
Teachers who are interested and schools that are interested in outdoor learning can access support via Hwb as well as through the Wales Council for Outdoor Learning, which is there to support schools. And we've had some very positive conversations, myself and the Minister for the environment, with Natural Resources Wales about what they too can bring to this agenda, especially in the light of our new curriculum.

I thank the Minister.

We'll now take our break and we will recommence at 2 o'clock.

Plenary was suspended at 13:14.
The Senedd reconvened at 14:02, with the Llywyddin the Chair.

4. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

We will recommence the session, and the next item on our agenda is questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Michelle Brown.

The NHS

Michelle Brown AC: 1. When will the Welsh NHS be operating as it was before the Covid-19 pandemic? OQ55426

Vaughan Gething AC: It is impossible to say when NHS Wales could operate as it did before the COVID-19 pandemic. None of us can say with certainty when the pandemic will end. We will, though, as I have stated previously, adapt NHS practice to take account of innovation and improvement during the pandemic.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Hundreds of doctors in Wales say that important wider patient care has been neglected during the COVID-19 pandemic. As of yesterday, the number of people who have died in Wales from COVID-19 was 1,531. Each one of those is a very sad story of loss for the family concerned, but the drop in the number of people starting vital cancer treatment is far higher. For example, in April alone, it was more than 5,000, and referrals to a single cancer pathway have halved since lockdown. Dr David Bailey, chair of the British Medical Association's Welsh council has said, and I quote,
'many ill patients are not getting the care they need now—they are risking their conditions getting worse and some may even die as a result.'
Research from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health shows that in the UK, more children have died from having treatment delayed during lockdown than have died from COVID-19, including nine from cancer sepsis and metabolic disease. You seem happy to boast that you're preventing more deaths from COVID-19, but when will you be publishing figures of the number of people who have died from other diseases because of the restrictions you've put on our NHS?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I think there are a couple of important points from the variety of comments. Obviously, I don't agree with every single comment the Member's made, but when it comes to cancer services, we've already made clear that urgent cancer services were always available during the pandemic, even when other parts of the NHS were closed down, following my decision on 13 March. So, we are looking to progressively restart services. We're going to restart screening services; the Member and others will be aware they're being progressively restarted through the summer.
It's part of the difficulty, though, that because of the pandemic, a range of patients made choices to defer their treatment. That was in consultation with their treating clinicians. There were alternative treatment options provided, and I am concerned, of course, not just in cancer, but in a wide range of other areas, that we haven't seen the level of activity maintained, and what we need to do is both to rethink, as we are doing progressively, how the NHS services restart, but also to build confidence within the public that they could and should access the NHS services that are available, as, indeed, cancer services are. We're starting to see a recovery in those referrals.
The second point I think, Llywydd, is the broader point made on excess deaths. I've always been interested in the excess death figures, and what it means in terms of, not just Wales but every other part of the United Kingdom, as we try to learn from the first phase of this pandemic. I'm hopeful that before the end of next week we'll have an interim report on excess deaths, with learning for us to not just take here in Wales, but to share with other parts of the UK, as I want to learn from practice in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as England.

Russell George AC: I heard your response, Minister, to the earlier question, and I also heard your response to the First Minister—sorry, Paul Davies's question to the First Minister earlier today on this subject. Can I ask what assurances you can provide that Welsh residents will receive equal treatment from English hospitals in the resumption of NHS services, and particularly in the resumption of outreach services by English hospital consultants to Welsh hospitals to provide appointments and procedures closer to home for Powys patients?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. It's an important matter about cross-border care, both for those who come into Wales, in particular in primary care, but also some hospital treatment that takes place as a regular, normal part of NHS treatment for Welsh residents in English hospitals. It's particularly the case for Powys and for Betsi Cadwaladr where elements of care are regularly commissioned, and they have had regular conversations with the trusts, because England have organised their hospital trusts into regional groups, and they're managed through silver and gold commands. And I can assure the Member, and people watching, that both Powys and Betsi Cadwaladr are active partners within that conversation as commissioning organisations who provide care for Welsh residents.
There are individual challenges as some of the missions have changed in individual hospitals. I know that in Gobowen there's been a slight change in the way that that provider delivers, just as there are some challenges around the Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust that are well advertised. But I'm happy to give the Member the assurance that the Welsh system is properly engaging with our regular partners across the border in England to try to make sure that Welsh residents don't have their care compromised.

Lynne Neagle AC: Minister, NHS staff can only engage in much-needed catch-up work if they are able to work over the summer, and support bubbles will only be of help to those NHS staff who have family members. Now, there was a very welcome announcement of extra funding for summer childcare earlier in the week, but no guidance has been issued to local authorities on providing childcare for NHS and social care key workers. I'm delighted to say that Torfaen council will be providing childcare for NHS and social care staff, but I've heard of one local authority that is thinking of charging £20 a day to key workers, which is a real kick in the teeth to NHS staff who have sacrificed so much in this pandemic. Will you discuss this with the Deputy Minister as a matter of urgency, and issue clear guidance to local authorities on what your expectation is of them over the summer, so that NHS staff can get back to doing that vital catch-up work that we know is desperately needed? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question. Of course, we want to see health and social care workers able to continue to work during the summer, and I recognise that childcare arrangements are part of it. It would be helpful for me if the Member would provide the example she's provided today in some more detail to me. I'd be delighted to receive some correspondence between yourself to myself and the Deputy Minister, so not only can we discuss matters with our officials here, but also we can have a constructive conversation with the Welsh Local Government Association, because throughout the pandemic, they've been a very constructive partner with us, and I think they'll recognise the issues that exist in every community, because, of course, they're just as concerned as we are that the NHS can carry on doing its job, together with partners in social care.

Effect of COVID-19 on Health Services

Mandy Jones AC: 2. What assessment has the Minister made of the effect of COVID-19 on non-COVID-19 related health services in north Wales? OQ55406

Vaughan Gething AC: I am of course aware that COVID-19 has had a real impact on non-COVID-19 care in north Wales and across the whole country, and patients are waiting for appointments and treatment. However, as well as hospitals postponing appointments, as we discussed earlier I am aware that during the pandemic some patients have elected to defer their appointments. Progressively introducing more NHS activity will provide greater non-COVID care across Wales.

Mandy Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. My grave concerns about the unintended consequences of lockdown are a matter of public record. The fact that the same subject has come up more than once today is testimony to the stories we're all, no doubt, hearing about delayed or cancelled chemotherapy appointments, surgeries delayed or cancelled and screening not taking place. You have been keen to tell the public that the NHS is open for business, when the reality appears to be the opposite, and this is our constituents' lived experience. Minister, are you sleepwalking into a bigger and more deadly health crisis later on this year? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, the First Minister and I have acknowledged, not just today but on regular occasions, the concern we have for the significant backlog that is being created in NHS demand and need. We've talked at various points—in fact, at early stages during the pandemic—about the concern over some people opting not to come in for treatment. One of the earliest points that I made was the fall-off in people coming in for treatment for strokes. I don't believe that's because, within a number of weeks of going into lockdown, the incidenceof stroke in Wales suddenly fell off a cliff. Actually, it's because people were opting not to come in. That's part of the difficulty of what we need to do to re-engineer our service progressively. As the First Minister has outlined, there are plans in place to have, if you like, green zones, where they're COVID-free or COVID-light, and red zones, where there are suspected or COVID-positive people being treated. But we need to engender enough confidence for people to use the service.
This is not a question of being wise after the event. We know that the excess deaths in Wales are more than 2,000 excess deaths since the start of the pandemic period. If we hadn't taken action, we can be awfully confident that we would have seen more deaths. So, our challenge is how we balance the different harms, the different challenges, that lockdown presents, easing out of lockdown and getting ourselves ready for what may take place over the autumn and the winter. But there's certainly no complacency within the Government or our national health service.

Mark Isherwood AC: After you announced that health boards are looking at how they can restart planned NHS operations and cancer services, a constituent e-mailed, 'Try telling that to my friend, who has a tumour on his kidney and had his operation postponed, and my wife, who has swelling under her arm and below her ear, down to the top of her breast—no x-ray or scan, and her first physio was cancelled.' On 17 June, you said the Welsh NHS is continuing to provide urgent treatment and diagnostics for suspected cancer. A constituent received a health board letter today stating that, 'Due to the COVID-19 healthcare situation, there could be a significant wait for your investigations', and she fears she might have cancer. Did the Minister see the Panorama programme this week, warning of a possible 35,000 cancer deaths across the UK as an indirect consequence of the current pandemic? Does he have a figure for Wales? And what additional steps will the Welsh NHS now take to minimise this number?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, obviously, as the Member knows, I'm not in a position to comment on the individual concerns that he raises, and I'm sure he'll be raising those with the treating health board. It's a matter of fact, not opinion, that we're restarting NHS services and that urgent cancer care has always been available. However, there will have been times when operational matters, such as people isolating if they have a positive test, or their context will have affected individual parts of our service. What we're looking to do is to progressively treat more people and, as I say, to give people the confidence to come into the service.
When it comes to excess deaths from cancer, but other conditions too, as I have said, again, I am genuinely concerned, and have been for months, as you'll know from the Record, that the impact on treatment means we'll have different outcomes and harm caused in different ways. It's part of what has made our task, as a Government and a health service that work for the people of Wales, so incredibly difficult, but I am confident we're doing the right thing in restarting activity and more lives will be saved as a result.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now by party spokespeople. The spokesperson for the Conservative group—Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, 1,097 patients or individuals were discharged to care homes without a COVID-19 test in March and April. On Sunday, you mentioned that there is no evidence to suggest this caused any increases in COVID cases or deaths. In relation to mortality rates and causes, there was a promise to issue an interim report before recess. Will this be looking very closely at the impact of discharges on care homes? What do you say to care home owners who have provided oral evidence such as, 'The people who were discharged from hospital were not tested because they only displayed the symptoms once they got to us'? I have established that 188 homes in north Wales had patients discharged to them in the nine weeks from 16 March. Will your interim report cross reference discharge data with that of care homes that have recorded cases of COVID-19?

Vaughan Gething AC: Ordinarily, Llywydd, questions from Janet Finch-Saunders are for the deputy, but I think it's clear today this is for me. When it comes to the interim report that I still want to have published before we go into recess, it plainly won't be going into the level of individual detail that the Member questions.
What we will do, though, is we'll want to try to understand what has happened, both in the choices that we made at the point in time when the NHS was at real risk of being overrun if we didn't prepare—. That's why I took the decision in the middle of March to pause a range of activity and for hospitals to create space and time for staff to retrain to save lives. It's also why we've taken a range of measures throughout the pandemic to support not just the residential care sector but the broader health and social care environment. I think the interim report will have a range of lessons for the Government and more broadly. As I say, there's more learning to take from that.
When it comes to the discharge without coronavirus tests, as I've said on a number of occasions, that was because that was the state of the current advice. The decision that I took, based on that advice, was that at that point in time people without symptoms should not be tested. However, it is worth all of us remembering that a range of those people discharged were being discharged to return to their own home. I think it's important that we support people to return and be cared for in their own home as we look to support the wider care home sector. That's the approach we'll continue to take—to take learning from what's happened and to apply that to the future.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister. Now, it's not just me who is concerned about care homes. The older people's commissioner's report, 'Care Home Voices', has requested step-down facilities to support safe discharges from hospital, and found that the limited availability of testing was a cause of significant worry. From 15 June, all care home staff were to be offered a weekly test for a four-week period. Will you extend this? In the latest week, 49.6 per cent of test results authorised in NHS Wales laboratories were returned within a day, and 74.1 per cent within two days. Why are the percentages getting smaller, and what specific measures will you take to reverse the trend?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'll deal with the last point first. When it comes to improving testing turnaround, it's a real concern of myself and the Government and the health service. We have an improvement programme in place identifying areas to make a practical difference to the operational delivery to speed up testing turnaround times. There's already action in place in terms of courier services and more action taking place, together with colleagues in Public Health Wales, to improve the efficiency within our labs.
When it comes to the broader approach, we will be publishing a revised testing strategy. I'm expecting some advice for me to consider and make a decision upon, and I expect to have that testing strategy published before the end of next week. So, we'll continue to learn from evidence and from experience as we look to revise our approach for the future, with the sole focus of saving lives and helping Wales to safely come out of lockdown.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you again. Now, from many people I've spoken to in the social care sector and care home staff, they feel badly let down by the First Minister. Do you agree with me that he should apologise for failing to make the £500 payment announcement without contacting Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs or clarifying whether the bonus would affect any benefits before making the announcement, or is this down to you? Should he urgently provide a date for when the bonus will be paid, stop dithering, and use Welsh Government's powers and funding to gross up the payment so to ensure that social care workers benefit by at least this £500? I would also like to see him ensure that community hospice staff are eligible for the bonus. Do you agree with those sentiments, health Minister?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, as you'll recall from listening to the First Minister earlier, we continue to talk with the UK Government to try to make sure that social care workers in Wales receive the full £500. I do not think that it would be a good day for HMRC if they picked the pocket of poorly paid workers in the social care sector, and we will look to exhaust all of the avenues of discussion before making any further choice, but it is a matter within the hands of the UK Government. This payment should not be a windfall for the UK Treasury.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. First of all, may I welcome the First Minister's statement that he's considering stronger guidance on the use of face coverings? We are focused on making face coverings compulsory in certain indoor arenas. The evidence on the benefit of that, and on the likelihood that the virus is spreading through the air, is becoming more prevalent. So, I'm looking forward to a robust statement at an early stage on that.
In turning to the health committee's report, the report was published today and it raised some fundamental questions on the Welsh Government's response to the pandemic. And one of those questions is on the pace of protecting the care sector. Now, I've seen some figures that seem to suggest how many antibody tests have been carried out in various sectors in Wales: 13,000 health workers have been tested; 9,000 workers in educational hubs have been tested; but only 75 people working in the care sector. Now, does the Minister understand that that reinforces this perception that this sector wasn't prioritised properly at an early stage during this pandemic and it's still not being prioritised now?

Vaughan Gething AC: I don't think it is a factually accurate conclusion to reach that the Government and our partners did not prioritise the social care sector in terms of the amount of support we've provided, both in extra cash support on an emergency basis, and the further amount of support that we're looking to find at a hard-pushed time as well. We've also provided significant amounts of personal protective equipment free to the social care sector at a time when their normal supply lines had collapsed. So, there's been a significant amount of support, including staffing as well.
When it comes to the antibody tests, I don't think that the figures are accurate. I'll happily look at the figures again and come back, not just to the Member, but more generally, because social care workers, health workers and education workers are three of the priority groups for the antibody test. And the antibody test is actually to help us understand the prevalence of coronavirus around the country at this point. The evidence on how long term an antibody response is, or indeed, the usefulness in terms of people's transmissability to other people, or indeed to help people recover or be immune from a further incidence of coronavirus is not clear, but it does certainly help us to understand how far coronavirus has spread. We'll continue to use the tests available to us to do so, and you can expect to see more of that in the testing strategy that I have already referred to.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I want to turn to data, now, if I may. We all welcomed the figures earlier this week, when there was another day when not a single COVID-19 death was recorded in Wales; we want more days like that day, of course. The figures also show that only seven new cases of COVID-19 were recorded on the Public Health Wales dashboard—again, that's good news. But we have to be careful with these figures, I think, because the figures could be inaccurate, because I do understand that as many as 35 to 40 per cent of new positive cases may not be being announced in these ways if they are tested in laboratories that aren't part of the NHS.
Will the Minister provide an assurance that everything will be done to ensure that every positive result is recorded and demonstrated on up-to-date dashboards and also that we can see in what areas these positive cases are emerging? Also, please can we ensure that GPs are informed when their patients prove positive, because, from speaking to GPs in Anglesey, they receive no information at all?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think there are three points that I'd make in response to those. The final one is to do with the pointabout GPs being informed. It should be available as part of the patient record; it should be available to general practice. And if the Member has individual instances that he's aware of within his constituency, then I'd be very pleased to see those to make sure the system is working as it should.
The Member will recall that's part of the reason we weren't able to—. Well, I chose not to participate in the UK testing programme, because, at an early stage, we weren't able to have the results of those tests fed back reliably and on a regular basis within our system. The Member will recall there are issues ongoing in Leicester about how regularly that information is provided within the English system.
That leads me on to my second point, which is that, of our positive cases, we do already provide information on the number of positive cases that come from the UK testing programme that we've opted into, in particular in drive-through centres, as well as that the Public Health Wales labs provide. So, yesterday, there were three positive results from the UK programme, and, together with the seven from Public Health Wales labs, that means 10, in total, positive cases across Wales.
And that goes into my third point, that, on all of the data we're currently seeing, we're seeing a positive downward trend in terms of the incidences of coronavirus, despite the fact there are two outbreaks in north Wales and the incident around Merthyr. So, that's on things like hospital admissions, positive cases, and, indeed, the use of critical care. We're all seeing things move in the right direction, and that's why we're able to make cautious but progressive steps to ease Wales out of lockdown. But the outbreaks are a reminder that none of us should become complacent, because coronavirus, sadly, has not gone away.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Yes, quite right. I think you confirmed what I was saying in your response there on the dashboard data. You say seven positive tests in Wales, three in non-NHS labs; the dashboard I saw only had those seven. So, that shows that all the data has to be presented in an up-to-date way, wherever the tests are processed.
I'm going to turn, finally, to another area where we need faster test results, and that's cancer diagnosis. The COVID crisis has led to a number of very worrying predictions about excess deaths from cancer that are likely to occur this year as a result of screening programmes being cancelled, people being too afraid to visit the NHS, and, of course, treatment being postponed. So, it's more vital than ever that we get fast test results where cancer is suspected. So, will you therefore adopt a cancer rescue plan that has more ambitious targets for testing and treatment than have previously been the case, because of the probability that the NHS will be identifying cancers at a later stage?

Vaughan Gething AC: [Inaudible.]—cancer information, and I can give the Member the assurance that the decision I made to both introduce and trial the single cancer pathway is going to be the path forward when we restart new performance measures in the future, as we progressively restart more forms of NHS activity. I have already decided that we will not be reporting the old measures. I think it would be unhelpful and confusing to report the old measures under the urgent and non-urgent pathway, and we will only be reporting as the single cancer pathway, which, as the Member knows, has been supported by both clinicians and the third sector cancer charities. And that, I think, will give us a much more accurate indication of what is really happening in terms of cancer treatment and waits. So, I expect that to provide the level of clarity and transparency in how quickly we're getting through the number being referred in to our cancer services, as we deal with needing to restart services. Because, as the Member will know, endoscopy services were suspended during the pandemic; they're now restarting. But that does give us significant challenges in a range of our work, not just in cancer, but we'll continue to be open and transparent about what we're doing and what that means for people here in Wales.

Brexit Party spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, thanks to the hard work and dedication of our health and care staff, as well as the enormous sacrifices by the Welsh public, we are over the worst of the coronavirus outbreak for now. As the chief medical officer rightly points out, we could be facing a renewed threat from COVID-19 come the autumn. What plans does the Welsh Government have in place to ensure that the NHS in Wales can deliver routine services at the same time as dealing with COVID-19? Or do your plans foresee a further suspension of everyday NHS services? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: There are two points to make there: the first is that, yes, we look at international surveillance, what happens in other countries as they reach their winter. It's part of the challenges around Melbourne, but it's also part, for example, of a concern we have about South America as they're approaching their winter and, in particular, the challenges of overcrowded housing and people who are already vulnerable. That is a real factor of concernfor us, and that does inform our plans here about both restarting the NHS, as I said before, the plans we already have—the need to have COVID-positive or suspected pathways and non-COVID pathways, the green and the red demarcation, which will require extra work to be done over the summer, physically in the environment in a range of our NHS treatment facilities—and we'll then need to think not just about restarting that activity, but how much and how far we can maintain that through the winter, when we know that there's normal, regular pressure on the health service. But if there is a further spike in coronavirus through the autumn or the winter, then it is of course possible that I may need to make another decision to suspend parts of our health service, because of a much greater harm that could be caused by having a spike in coronavirus and not changing the way that our health service delivers its service.
So, all of those things are possible, but my plan is to get as much as possible of normal treatment to resume in the national health service through the summer and to take all necessary steps to help people to continue taking measures to reduce the prospect of a further upswing in coronavirus here in Wales.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. Of course, the biggest threat this winter comes from dealing with a bad cold and flu season alongside a COVID outbreak. Minister, will you commit to expanding the availability of the flu vaccine and making it available earlier? Pandemic restrictions will make delivering the flu vaccine much harder than in previous years, so we need to begin roll-out preparation now. Minister, last year, many people did not receive their vaccinations until December, and there were widespread shortages. Can you guarantee that these shortages will not happen this year? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I can say we're already looking at this year's flu programme and, in particular, at procuring extra stocks of the flu vaccine. There is work going on across Wales on extending eligibility for the NHS flu programme. I want to have a much higher uptake of both staff who work with vulnerable people as well as those people who qualify for an NHS flu jab to actually take up that entitlement.
There were particular issues with the form of the vaccine supply last year. We're in early conversations. That is work not just within Wales, but also it's a conversation that I've had amongst the four Cabinet health Ministers across the UK, because we do actually share resources in the way we procure the flu vaccine. So, we're looking at an earlier and more significant procurement to make sure we're able to help people protect themselves and their families, of course.
We do know that vulnerability to flu is a potential issue if we do see a further increase in coronavirus itself. I'm not so much concerned that there might be a difficult flu season, but an average flu season with a further increase in coronavirus could have really significant consequences and real harm across Wales, so it's one of my more significant concerns now in planning for the autumn and the winter.

Resuming Treatments

David Rees AC: 3. What guidance has the Welsh Government given health boards to resume non-Covid-19 and non-life threatening treatments? OQ55425

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I have issued NHS Wales COVID-19 operating frameworks for quarter 1 of this financial year, and more recently quarter 2. These provide guidance on the actions to be taken across the health and social care system, and build towards returning to the delivery of a wider range of services.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister, and thank you for the answers to earlier questions on a similar theme, because it's important that we address the issues of looking after our people who have not got COVID-19, but who still have some very serious health concerns and issues. Last week in the health and social care committee, we actually heard that as well as the waiting lists, which are clearly expanding as we wait because of the delays in treatments, there is likely to be another bubble of waiting lists of those individuals who have not come forward yet, but who will come forward with treatments required for conditions they currently have. What's the Welsh Government going to do to help health boards through this challenge? Because, in the past, you've done waiting list initiatives. Are you going to do something similar or other actions to help health boards and maybe actually introduce additional facilities to get through the waiting lists that will definitely be created as a consequence of this?

Vaughan Gething AC: There are a number of different steps we're taking. You'll have heard the First Minister describe this earlier. It's not a simple or straightforward matter, because the normal waiting list initiatives, the way we'd have worked, we'd have been able to get through more in, if you like, standard NHS time, as well as running additional sessions. That's less likely to be possible in the same way. It's why we've maintained contact with the independent sector and how they may be able to help in terms of dealing with both urgent and other matters too. But it's also why we're looking at the current operating framework and the need to continually reform the way we deliver services. As we're looking to have green zones, we may end up having a greater amount of elective care and throughput in some parts of the service because of the way we will have to behave to make sure that we have COVID-secure and, if you like, COVID-positive or COVID-suspected zones as well. So you can expect to see that in health board plans, but also in the statements that I expect to bring back to the Senedd as we go into the autumn, to set out some more detail of that. And of course, health board plans will go through the normal health board governance and be published as part of the health board papers.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, there was already unequal access to non-life-threatening treatments in the NHS across Wales. We know that the situation, for example, even before COVID in north Wales was that people were having to wait up to two years for their orthopaedic procedures. So can you tell us, in these actions that you're expecting health boards to take, will there be specific additional support for health boards like the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to help it to get to grips with what is likely to be a much more significant problem in north Wales than perhaps in other parts of the country?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I wouldn't want to speculate on the relative challenge between different parts of the country. What I do know is that every health board is actively looking at what it will need to do to make sure it's on top of not just the numbers on the waiting list, but the clinical prioritisation of those different people who are waiting for different procedures, and how we need to safely restart more activity within the service. That's why the decision that I made and confirmed yesterday, to take steps on the debt levels of some NHS organisations, has been a significant positive factor. To be fair, it's a matter that the official spokesperson from the Welsh Conservatives had asked me to consider over a number of weeks, to make sure that in COVID planning, health boards weren't then put into a position where they'd have to reconsider making financial savings ahead of actually doing the right thing through these extraordinary circumstances. I always said that no health board would be compromised or punished for doing the right thing, and that underpins the choice that I made yesterday to help health boards to plan constructively and positively for the future and the people that they serve.

Track and Trace

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the effectiveness of the track and trace regime in North Wales? OQ55428

Vaughan Gething AC: The NHS Wales track and trace service has had a positive start, with well over 84 per cent of contacts being successfully made. The TTP service has been a crucial aspect of successfully, to date, managing the two outbreaks in north Wales, and I want to pay tribute to both partners and our front-line staff for the work that they are doing to help keep Wales safe.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for your response. Of course, the success of any such initiative is very much dependent on the initial testing, and we've seen as we have this week with some cases relating to pubs in England that immediate tracking based on quick testing is the most effective way to identify those who should be self-isolating. At the same time, we're still hearing of cases where people with symptoms are actually waiting more than five days for test results. So, why are we still seeing this lag, Minister, in getting test results back? What implications would you say that has for preventing the further spread of the disease?

Vaughan Gething AC: It's a matter of concern. It's been raised in previous questions, not just here, but outside as well, about the need to see a further improvement in the speed of test returns, because it does then mean we should have an even more effective contact tracing service and system, and the individual instances—it doesn't matter whether they're a relatively small minority in percentage terms—they all represent a risk factor for the individual and for their contacts. That's why there's a range of improvement action already under way. Rather than explaining away why it doesn't matter, it does matter, and that's why we need to see more efficiency in the lab process as well as couriering and making sure that more and more people get their results promptly. Because, actually, our contact tracing service are doing a very good job of following up those contacts when they're provided by people who've had a positive case, and we need to have people to continue to positively buy in to the contact tracing service so they don't feel they're being told to self-isolate unnecessarily, as that may affect people's willingness to continue to self-isolate in the future, and that's important for all of us, whether we know those people or not, to help keep Wales safe.

Question 5 [OQ55415] has been withdrawn, therefore, question 6, Joyce Watson.

Social Care Workforce Special Payment Scheme

Joyce Watson AC: 6. Will the Minister provide an update on the social care workforce special payment scheme? OQ55429

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Joyce Watson for that question. We have published interim guidance on the scheme to confirm the eligibility criteria. Work is now focused on finalising a robust implementation and delivery plan to ensure that payments are made as quickly as possible.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you. I do find it astounding that the Tories are trying to turn a real, genuine, positive way of rewarding those who work in the care sector into a negative, in the same way that the Prime Minister has blamed care workers for spreading coronavirus. Do you agree with me that it's time that the Tories showed some positivity towards care workers who have given so much to their communities, and might they not be wise to adopt the words of Winston Churchill in 1940, when he said,
'Never...was so much owed by so many to so few'?

Julie Morgan AC: I'd like to thank Joyce Watson very much for that supplementary question, because it does give me the opportunity to thank all the care workers in Wales for their tireless work during this very difficult period and to regret the fact that they may have been upset by the words of the Prime Minister yesterday. I'm sure that Joyce Watson would agree with me that one of the ways the Prime Minister could show his appreciation for care workers is to allow them to have the £500 in full. As the First Minister said in his questions, we are still exploring with HMRC to see if we can come to an agreement, but if the Prime Minister does regret what he said yesterday, he will make sure that they get that money in full.

Hywel Dda University Health Board

Paul Davies AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the delivery of health services in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area? OQ55405

Vaughan Gething AC: The recent focus of the Hywel Dda University Health Board, like the others across Wales, has been on their response to COVID-19. The health board is now planning for the continued provision of essential and key services alongside caring for patients affected by COVID-19.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, a strong accident and emergency service is integral to the effective delivery of health services in hospitals across the Hywel Dda University Health Board area. Now, as you'll be aware, there is a strong campaign to retain A&E services at Withybush General Hospital. Given the recent news that Cwm Taf health board has decided to retain A&E services at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, the people of Pembrokeshire are now looking at that decision and, quite rightly, asking for the same safeguards. Therefore, can you tell us what the Welsh Government's position is on the delivery of A&E services in Pembrokeshire and, in light of the change in policy in relation to other A&E services across Wales, will you ensure that an A&E service remains at Withybush hospital, just as it now remains at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, as the Member will know, the health board in Cwm Taf Morgannwg undertook a consultation about options, and they were able to recruit more staff to safely deliver that service. The Member will also know, over a long period of time, the challenges that have been faced in delivering healthcare across Wales and the plans for the future delivery of healthcare, and he'll also recall the question from his colleague Darren Millar, some weeks ago, which called on the Welsh Government not to interrupt service changes already in train. I expect the health board to continue to deliver safe and effective care and to continue to make sure the transformation of health and care in west Wales, as outlined in their plan, 'A Healthier Mid and West Wales', continues to the benefit of all citizens in every part of mid and west Wales.

Free Childcare

Hefin David AC: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on universal free childcare provision in light of the continued easing of Covid-19 lockdown arrangements in Wales? OQ55431

Julie Morgan AC: We are providing free childcare for the pre-school-age children of critical workers and vulnerable children under the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme. Our childcare offer remains suspended to new entrants. We intend to reinstate it in September, subject to the position with regard to the response to the virus.

Hefin David AC: With that in mind, I've been contacted by a resident who had questions about the 30 free hours—she's already eligible as one of the people who are already eligible—through the school holidays, which they're entitled to. Can you confirm and put it on the record that that will continue for those people already eligible? And, with regard to September, she's working from home and her partner is working from home as well. When will we have clarity as to the availability in September in order for parents to consider their options in advance of that time?

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Hefin David for that question. The budget for the offer was repurposed from April to fund childcare for the pre-school children of critical workers and vulnerable children under the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme. So, unfortunately, this meant that we had to close the offer to new entrants temporarily. We are working now with our key stakeholders, especially the local authorities, who are administering both the childcare coronavirus assistance scheme and the offer in their local areas to see when we can reopen the offer to new parents. We very much hope to be able to restart both the education and childcare provision under the offer in the autumn term. This is obviously subject to the data on the virus over the summer, but we are aware how important this support is for both families and childcare providers. So, we do aim to make an announcement as soon as possible.

Maesteg Community Hospital

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 9. What discussions has the Minister had with Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board on the future development of the Maesteg Community Hospital following the report to the health board on emergency care at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital? OQ55400

Vaughan Gething AC: The delivery of services at the Maesteg Community Hospital is a matter for the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board. However, I understand the health board remains committed to maintaining the current services provided at that community hospital, and is actively engaging with a range of community representatives to extend those services further.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, thank you for the answer, and you're absolutely right—it is a decision for the board. But I want to ask you if you would welcome the renewed emphasis that the health board has put on, not least in the light of the very welcome decision on the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, to also invest heavily in primary and community care in order to actually protect our emergency services as well, making sure that people go to the right place for the right treatment. And, indeed, they are now focusing very much on developing community care within Maesteg hospital. Would he take an interest in this? Would he speak to the board about their work with Maesteg Community Hospital, and also their intention to develop community and primary care within the Llanharan area as well? It's great to see this renewed focus.

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I'll be happy to take an interest and to make sure that the health board, in developing these services in the Member's constituency, actively engage with him as one of the most significant community stakeholders, because I understand the project board are due to restart some of their work that's been paused during the coronavirus pandemic to date, to continue looking at the future. I will happily make sure that the Member is kept fully and properly informed, and that he has direct engagement with the health board on this matter for the future.

I thank the Minister.

5. Topical Questions

The next item, therefore, is the topical questions, and the first question is to be asked to the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, and it's to be asked by Siân Gwenllian.

Support for the Arts

Siân Gwenllian AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on the support that will be available to the arts in Wales after the UK Government announced a package to support the sector to cope with the effects of COVID-19? TQ466

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you for that question, Siân. We do have an economic resilience fund in place already as a Welsh Government, providing a package of business support that is among the most generous in the UK. But we are also aware through our ongoing discussions with the sectors, including the arts and culture, what longer term challenges they will face and what additional support they will need.

Siân Gwenllian AC: At last, the announcement came from the Minister for culture in England on funding for the arts in Wales. It's very frustrating to have to wait for such announcements before Welsh Government can take any action. I'm sure you would agree with that. Will you proceed without delay to establish a taskforce, to include every part of the sector, to draw up an action plan tosave the arts sector because they are in crisis? The plan needs to secure support for every part of the sector, from the theatres and the arts centres to the thousands of freelancers that are an integral part of the ecology of the arts in Wales.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much. I agree with the content of your question, but I cannot respond constructively on the establishment of any sort of new taskforce, because I do think that we have the effective bodies in place already in Wales, through the Arts Council of Wales, but also through local government. And I have already had discussions—this morning, as it happens—with local authorities on the possibility of using more local councils to support the arts within communities. And therefore, whilst I welcome the expenditure of £59 million that will be available to Wales, I won't be the one to make the decision on that expenditure, because according to the funding regime in place in Wales—as is the case with Scotland and Northern Ireland—the funding is distributed on the basis of devolved expenditure in Wales and corresponding expenditure in England. But it doesn't follow that that expenditure will be spent in its entirety on what happens in England. And if we were to start to go down that route, then what would be the purpose of having a Government in Wales, having a Welsh budget, and providing freedom for Welsh Ministers to decide what is best? And therefore I don't intend to commit to following what's happening in England.

David Melding AC: Well, of course, Deputy Minister, you could spend more than they're going to spend in England—the choice goes up and down, doesn't it? But I think it's very important that this hugely substantial aid that's now going to come to the arts sector in England and therefore will have a massive consequential—£59 million, or so—for Wales is spent in both an enterprising and a strategic way. I note in England the Minister there says that he wants to combine effective local support with preserving what he calls the crown jewels of the artistic infrastructure in England. And it does seem to me that our great institutions in Wales will need protection as well, because so many of them are just not going to be able to operate anything like a normal business model until well into 2021 at the best. So, can you assure us that you will be working with all these great institutions? And also, will you be taking the opportunity to further your Fusion plans in terms of access and equality in the arts, because it does seem to me that, given the level of this public support, we are going to be in a position to require that agenda to be progressed rapidly?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: I can certainly tell him positively that the Fusion scheme is one that I've inherited through one of my long-standing political friends, Kay Andrews—Baroness Andrews—who devised the scheme, reported to Welsh Government to set it up. And I can assure you that I would regard that as a priority for further investment, because it brings together whole issues in relation to disability and community arts, and relates them to what we can do.
Now, you also said 'institutions'. I want to make it quite clear this funding that we've had is not necessarily for institutions. It's for institutions that have business plans to deliver. It is also for those individuals—the individual artistic workers—who are self-employed, the overwhelming majority of them. And I think it's very important that we look to the whole sector. It's for the personnel who deliver artistic services, as well as the institutions.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I obviously hear what the Minister says about the way that devolved finances work, but he will be aware—I know he is aware—of how serious the crisis facing the sector is and the cliff edge that we face as we come to the position where furlough begins to be scaled back in August. There are already arts institutions that are making some staff—. They're issuing redundancy letters because they may have to let staff go at the end of July. So, while understanding what the Minister has said about the time that there will need to be a decision by Welsh Government about how much of this money is spent in this sector—and of course, as Chair of the committee, you would expect me to wish that it all will be—can I ask the Minister whether he has an indicative timetable by when these decisions about the amount of money will be made, and also about when the sector will know how they can apply for it?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Well, the initial discussion among Ministers will happen this week. You talk about applying for it, but we haven't yet decided whether this is to be part of an already existing scheme, backing up what the arts council have done, and I'm very grateful for the way the arts council has managed the £7 million that we made available to them before we knew we had this further funding. So, it'll be discussed with the arts council, and particularly with the Welsh local authorities, because I think it's important that we revitalise the community arts and the theatres and the artistic activity that, traditionally, has gone on through the partnership between the local authorities and the arts council.

I thank the Deputy Minister. The next topical question is to the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales, and the question is to be asked by Carwyn Jones.

Ineos Automotive

Carwyn Jones AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement following reports that Ineos is reconsidering its decision to build a new plant in Bridgend? TQ468

Ken Skates AC: I was extremely disappointed at the way that the news was relayed to Welsh Government, following all of the incredibly hard work in partnership that had been built over a number of years. The Welsh Government has invested time, energy and money into this business.

Carwyn Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. Sorry, Llywydd—are you calling me back?

Yes. Please—Carwyn Jones.

Carwyn Jones AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. This is a great disappointment, of course, to the people of Bridgend—both the town and the surrounding area. Minister, do you agree with me that where businesses make a case for Brexit, there is an extra responsibility on them to invest in the UK and not invest in the single market purely because it may be more convenient? Do you also agree with me that those who are passionate Brexiteers should be angry at what has happened here, because this undermines their passionately held belief that the UK would be better outside the EU? And do you further agree that those Brexiteers would be welcome to join me in expressing my great anger, really, that, when a firm decides to build a British car, decides that it wants to build in the UK, it then decides to change its mind and build in the EU? That is not, is it, Minister, a way of expressing confidence in Brexit?

Ken Skates AC: I'd agree entirely with Carwyn Jones and say that this decision is somewhat perplexing given that the business in question has been such a supporter of Brexit, and there is no doubt whatsoever that Brexit is doing immense damage to the automotive industry and the economy in general. And, essentially, what they've decided to do—fact—is go to France just at the point that we're reaching the end of the transition period, with no light at the end of the tunnel. And they are taking to France an icon of British automotive history and they're going to build it in Europe rather than in Britain where the company had promised to construct it. That will be very disappointing, I'm sure, to all of those fans of the product—the old Defender, or what will become known as the Grenadier—who had celebrated the fact, back in September last year, that it would be built in Britain.
We are going to do all we can to ensure that those alternative options, which we've been examining for Bridgend, are delivered for the community of Bridgend and the surrounding area. And I'd like to thank Carwyn Jones for the work that he has done in leading one of the work streams that was created as part of the Ford taskforce in ensuring that we have a focus not only the people who are going to be affected through the loss of Ford, but also the places that are going to be affected as well. And through the hard work of the former First Minister, we've been able to identify opportunities to invest in more enterprise hubs in the regeneration of Porthcawl, and we're supporting businesses in the north Bridgend valleys as well.
But this disappointing news, I'm sure, should be reflecting the poor performance of the UK Government in terms of the negotiations with our European colleagues to date, and should also send a very real warning about the state of the automotive sector as we reach the end of the transition period.

Suzy Davies. Suzy Davies, we can't hear you at the moment. Can you—?

Suzy Davies AC: Just a sec.

Yes, I think we can hear you now.

Suzy Davies AC: Yes? Thank you very much, and sorry. Thank you for calling me on this topical question. I'm sorry that it seemed to have been so wasted by the individual who actually asked the question originally, because it's quite clear that this company chose Bridgend not only over three or four other UK sites originally, but a number of European sites as well. And it's worth remembering that there's another factory in Portugal, which, as far as I know, is still within the EU, that has also been let down by this company. So, I feel that the question so far has been a complete distraction from trying to resolve this problem for the people of Bridgend who, of course, have been relying on this not just financially, but emotionally.
I wonder, Minister, if you can tell us, looking back at the last 18 months, about whether there were any indications that Ineos may not be as committed to this project as you'd hoped. In March 2019, actually, I raised with you the fact that the company had gone to BMW to get the engine for the Grenadier, when we were still hoping that Ford might have attracted the company. And when we heard nothing, then, for six months, I think we were all as excited as you were when Ineos said that they were coming to the site at Brocastle. Now, at that time, you said that the Welsh Government—and I'm quoting—'has been critically important to attracting this business to Wales'. So, presumably, you are critically important to pinning them down to their commitment in the first place as well. You also said that the arrangement allowed you to secure European funding to facilitate further road and utility infrastructure on the site.
So, can you tell us, do you think the company is just playing hardball at this stage, and that a deal is still possible here? Has Ineos told you anything about the site's accessibility by road and rail, or, indeed, the accessibility by road and rail to the Portuguese site also affected by this, as compared to that of the French site? Did you get any European funding and will any of that have to go back now? And in the clawback provisions that you'll inevitably have included in any arrangement with Ineos so far, did any of those relate to the £4 million cost of the site preparation at Brocastle, knowing, of course, that Ineos was the anchor business material to your ability to attract those secondary and supply chain businesses to the site? And perhaps I could also ask, as this deal seems to have fallen apart on the day that the lease was due to be signed—

You can't ask any further questions, Suzy. You're already out of time.

Suzy Davies AC: That's it. Thank you very much, Llywydd.

Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Suzy Davies for her questions? I'll first of all deal with the accessibility question. Any suggestion that the M4 decision influenced Ineos is nothing more than nonsense on stilts. The fact of the matter is that the M4 decision was made in the summer of 2019, and the Ineos deal was secured in the autumn of 2019. In four years of negotiations with the company, not on one occasion was the M4 raised. It's about as credible a claim as the claim that the UK Government's failure and refusal to electrify the south Wales mainline may have influenced Ineos's decision. The fact of the matter is that a site became available in France very late last week, and in a very, very short space of time, the business decided to go to France, rather than remain in Wales. We will be seeking to recoup the £4 million that has been spent to date. There is the slightest chance that it could still come to Wales, but that would require the deal in France to fall through. But we will go on working to ensure that as many job opportunities come to Bridgend and the surrounding communities as possible.

Caroline Jones AC: Minister, this is yet another devastating blow for my region and it is deeply disappointing. But regarding Ineos's position, the Grenadier had a very short shelf life and as we move to phase out fossil-fuelled engines, and combined with the uncertain economic climate, their future was uncertain. But, nevertheless, it is regrettable for my constituents and region. First Minister, it is clear that the traditional automotive sector is on the way out. Will your Government now concentrate its efforts on attracting the likes of Tesla? And will you commit to invest in training and research and development into the electric vehicle sector, instead of the traditional gas-guzzling one?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Caroline Jones for her question? And just to assure Caroline Jonesthat the Grenadier project—as a result of the company, Ineos, signing an economic contract with Welsh Government—would have led to alternative propulsion systems being used, in all probability, first for a hybrid engine and thereafter a full electric or even a hydrogen system. The fact that it's now going to France means that there will be no economic contract in place, and so we do not know what the future of the Grenadier will be beyond the diesel engine.
I can assure the Member that we are putting immense energy and effort into securing the gigafactory on the Bro Tathan site, which could create 3,500 jobs, working with Britishvolt. In order to secure that, we need investment from UK Government through the automotive transformation fund. This is a point that I've impressed upon numerous Ministers in Westminster, and as a consequence of the Ineos decision, I would hope UK Government Ministers make a very firm pledge that we will receive the sums needed to deliver the gigafactory in south Wales.
The decision by Ineos truly did come out of the blue, because that site in France only went up for sale on Friday of last week. Everything—everything—we were doing with the company was leading to the successful manufacturing of the Grenadier within Bridgend, and that decision was taken over a matter of just days not to invest in Wales, and it is one that we deeply regret and we are incredibly disappointed at.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Of course, we share the Minister's disappointment and are deeply sympathetic to the community around Bridgend that was, obviously, very much looking forward to the opportunities that this might have provided. May I ask the Minister, should I infer from what he said that this is a decision where we cannot expect Ineos to review their position? I think it would help people to know. And in a situation like this, the last thing we want is false hope.
Is the Minister able to say more today about what further plans for the site—what else the Welsh Government may be considering? And perhaps if he's not able, given what he's already said about this coming as a shock to him and his officials, could he undertake to keep Members updated through the recess about what developments are proceeding?
And finally, does the Minister agree with me—and in a sense, this builds on his answer to Caroline Jones—that we should perhaps learn lessons from this experience, and that it is maybe time for us to refocus, as a nation, our economic policies, both into the green agenda, as Caroline Jones has suggested, but also so that we rely less on inward investment, that we are less vulnerable to the vagaries of businesses and individuals like the person involved in this situation, and that we invest more in growing our own business infrastructure, the business who are rooted here who believe in their communities and who will make that work? Of course, that takes longer to deliver jobs, but when those jobs are delivered, they are very much more likely to stay.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for her questions? I will most certainly keep Members updated on any developments. We are keeping communications open, of course, with Ineos. But in order to turn that decision around, I think it would require direct contributions from the Prime Minister, given how close the Prime Minister and his colleagues are to the person that owns Ineos. I'm sure that the Prime Minister will be in direct contact with the company in the coming days. I hope that he will be able to secure the project for the UK, but I'm not holding out too much hope that that will happen, and I wouldn't wish to offer false hope to anybody who is aspiring to work within the Ineos factory in Bridgend.
Within the economic action plan, investment in indigenous growth is at the very heart of our attempt to drive inclusive and fair growth across Wales, and we are fully committed to growing the foundational economy, to strengthening it, and to ensure that the missing middle is addressed in a way that has been addressed in other countries, including, for example, in Germany. There are two alternative proposals for the Ford site itself, which we're working through, and in addition to that, as I said in my answer to Caroline Jones, we're also looking at the gigafactory potential for the Bro Tathan site.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I have to say, locally, people are utterly gutted with hearing this last-minute decision, when construction and development was happening there on the ground, and I really do strengthen the call from others here for you, Minister, and the First Minister to make a direct appeal to the Prime Minister, to Boris Johnson, to ask the chief executive and this company, even at this last minute, to think again. Because the idea that the Grenadier, building on an iconic British institution of the Land Rover Discovery, that has been brought forward by somebody who is a flag-waver for Britain and all things British, and also for EU withdrawal on the basis that no jobs would be lost—this is the very moment for the Prime Minister to step in directly and say, 'Think again', because if he does, he will have loyalty and a skilled workforce from people here in Bridgend. We are wondering now, 'What the heck? How is Grenadier pronounced in French or in German?'.This is supposedly an iconic British brand and we are angry locally about this last-minute betrayal.

Ken Skates AC: Can I agree entirely with Huw Irranca-Davies and say that his anger and disappointment is shared across Welsh Government? As I said in my answer to the former First Minister Carwyn Jones, the Defender was an iconic piece of British automotive history, and the fact that it was returning, albeit with a different name and different guise, was celebrated by the automotive press, by automotive enthusiasts and particularly by owners of the original Defender. Sadly, we now know that the last truly British Defender has already rolled off the production lines, and that happened many years ago. This will be an entirely different beast with a different name, built outside of Britain, and that is something that I think thousands upon thousands of potential customers of this product will be bitterly disappointed by.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, I am disappointed with your reaction today, trying to blame Brexit for the position that we find ourselves in, and I'd encourage you to listen to the First Minister's response to me in First Minister's questions about adopting a more positive approach to engage with the company. If I was the company's managing director and I listened to your responses today, I would realise that there was a 'closed' sign for me coming back to Wales, and I think that's highly regrettable. There's the opportunity to build a factory in Bridgend, and that should happen, without a shadow of a doubt, and I want to put my shoulder to the wheel and support that, but your negative tone today will do nothing to reopen negotiations with that company. Last time I looked, Portugal was in the European Union and Nissan just reaffirmed their commitment to Sunderland. So, why on earth is it the case that you're being so negative on this proposal?

Ken Skates AC: I find the question from Andrew R.T. Davies to be somewhat unbelievable. Your energy should be used in directing the Prime Minister to intervene personally and immediately to secure the Ineos factory for Wales. You have not had a conversation with the chief executive officer of the company; I have. I know the reasons why they have decided not to proceed with Wales and with Portugal as centres for the manufacturing of the Grenadier. The Prime Minister could have a critical role to play in ensuring that Wales does have the prospect of securing work from this project, and your energy should be directed towards the Prime Minister himself.

I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Education: The Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Education on the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill. I call on the Minister for Education to make the statement—Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I am very pleased to introduce the curriculum and assessment Bill for the Senedd’s consideration. I do so on behalf of this Government and for the teachers, academics, practitioners, businesses, unions and many others who are building this future for our learners, our schools and our nation.
Now, we could not have anticipated that we would be turning this page of history in Welsh education under these circumstances. The national effort against the coronavirus has involved a team of 3.2 million and the education family has met the challenge together, stepping up to ensure that our children and young people are supported with their well-being, their ability to learn and to grow.
Now, our education reforms, with the new curriculum at the centre, is also a shared national endeavour: collective expertise, experience and energy, so that we raise standards for all, reduce the attainment gap and ensure that we have a system of education in Wales that is a source of pride and enjoys public confidence.
This Bill provides a new legislative framework to support the new curriculum and assessment arrangements, and helps us to meet those ambitions for every single learner, for every single teacher and every single education setting.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Kirsty Williams AC: Colleagues, now is the time for the first-ever truly made-in-Wales curriculum, shaped by the best learning here and further afield. The essential features of the current curriculum devised in 1988 by the then Westminster Government is simply not fit for purpose in contemporary Wales—one that was designed before the fall of the Berlin wall, before it was smashed into rubble. Well, that's not the strong foundation that we need for a knowledge-rich, adaptable-skills and the entrepreneurial curriculum fit for twenty-first century citizens of Wales and the world.
However, the newly formed curriculum is not only about skills for the future of our economy and for future employment. It will support young people to develop higher standards of literacy and numeracy, to become more digitally and bilingually competent, and evolve into those enterprising, creative and critical thinkers I'm sure that we all want to see. And it will help to develop our young people as confident, capable and compassionate citizens—citizens of Wales; indeed, citizens of our world. Therefore, we will legislate for the four purposes, so that they are the shared vision and aspiration for every child, every young person. And in fulfilling these, we set high expectations for all, promote individual and national well-being, tackle ignorance and misinformation, and encourage critical and civic engagement. Every school will have the opportunity to design and implement their own curriculum within the national approach that secures consistency for learners across the country.
The six areas of learning and experience bring together familiar disciplines and encourage strong and meaningful links across them. While disciplines remain important, this new approach supports learners to build connections across their learning, helping them to understand not only what they're learning, but why they are learning it, and the Bill will require a curriculum to embed the mandatory cross-curricular skills of literacy, numeracyand digital competency. In addition, the Bill sets out four further mandatory curriculum elements, including Welsh and English. This reflects our bilingualism, whilst also recognising critical and very successful Welsh-medium immersion. I do, however, recognise the continuing debate on the position of English in the Bill. And just as I did last week during the Plaid Cymru debate, I want to say once again that I will continue to engage in those conversations and consider next steps. But I can assure Members that I am wholeheartedly committed to the progress of each and every learner in becoming, at the very least, a bilingual citizen, and their appreciation, their understanding and their questioning of the world builds from knowing their own history, their own democracy and their environment.
In fact, the current curriculum provisions are narrow, they're restrictive, and they do not do enough to support teachers to design and develop a curriculum that prioritises learners' progression. So, we will move into a new era where each learner benefits from a broad and balanced education. But we must never ever lower our expectations for any of our young people, no matter what their background. It is a fundamental matter of equity and excellence for all, and that's why thousands and thousands more learners in Wales now enter and gain a science GCSE. It's why we now outperform other nations of the United Kingdom in our A-level results and it's why thousands more are studying and succeeding at higher education levels.
Therefore, the Bill requires Ministers to issue a progression code setting out the way in which progression must be reflected within a school's curriculum. Issuing a progression code with mandatory elements will ensure that there is consistency in an approach to progression across the country.
The achievements that I've just mentioned also demonstrate that because we are indeed raising standards and delivering on a system that can enjoy public confidence, we are now fit and ready as a nation to move forward with our new curriculum. This means moving from narrow subjects to six broad areas of learning and experience; a curriculum that is purpose-based—four purposes that articulate the kind of citizens that we want, the citizens that we need; and a real focus on three core statutory skills: literacy, numeracy and digital competence. This will be our new curriculum for Wales, of Wales, by Wales, and we have moved forward together to get to this day. A system where everyone has a shared stake, where we set high standards for all and where we truly combine knowledge, skills and experience, where no-one, nowhere is written off, and where we can take the next steps in our national mission of education reform.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I hope you can tell that I am really excited about this opportunity, and I look forward to the contributions and the collective efforts of Members here in this Parliament to take this significant Bill on its parliamentary journey. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Suzy Davies AC: [Inaudible.]—definitely can see how excited you are with this Bill. Thank you for bringing it forward. Leaving it perhaps a little bit close to the mark with Royal Assent by the end of this Senedd term, which, I'm afraid, leads me straight to my first observation. The Bill provides for a five-year review, which means that this will be happening—[Interruption.] Hello? Am I still audible? Okay, I'll carry on. I hope you'll extend my time a little.

Yes, okay.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you. Yes, the point I was making is that the Bill as it stands introduces a five-year review, which means that it'll be happening at the same time as the next election. So, I just wanted to know what the thinking was behind excluding an entire Senedd from assessing the success of the new curriculum. I think perhaps the timing of that review might make a little bit more sense for a seventh Senedd to examine its findings, if the implementation of the Bill was put back just a short while in order to make up for the delays in curriculum development caused by COVID-19. The explanatory memorandum says that the full effects of COVID on curriculum development are unknown, but that the current timelines—quote—
'remain the best indication of how and when the curriculum reforms will be phased in.'
And I think that does overlook the fact that 76 per cent of schools have already told us that COVID has had a negative effect on curriculum development, and that 46 per cent of them have done nothing at all over lockdown. As this is teachers plus some academics who are suggesting a delayed implementation, I wonder if you would just commit to keeping an open mind on an implementation date as the Bill progresses and as further evidence is gathered on the continuing effects of COVID on that curriculum development work. Obviously, there's that catch-up on the curriculum—the current curriculum—which will squeeze time as well.
The principle of a local curriculum is a core philosophy of this Bill, and the mandatory elements of that local curriculum contain controversial elements in the case of relationships and sexuality education. I understand that the work is still not quite complete. And I know that all elements have been co-constructed with partners, but if it's to be genuinely co-produced, we need to know how the voice of the child, the parent and the wider community will be given due regard in creating a local curriculum. Just by way of illustration on how those voices can be inadvertently diminished, though not on quite the same point, there's a duty on the school to publish its curriculum, but nothing in the Bill about alerting families to the right to request an alternative religious curriculum, for example. So, what is the role of the wider community in curriculum design, and how will those be voices be weighted? And, in fact, what will a consultation on codes and guidance look like—is that just going to be with professionals or more widely? And to go to the other end of the scale, the final decision on the curriculum lies with the head and governors, as long as they respect guidelines and requirements arising from the Bill. So, local authorities, I understand, are not the final arbiter as they are in some decisions about schools. So, how will those higher level strategic plans, such as Welsh in education strategic plans, which will impact on curriculum, be enforced?
And, finally—plenty to ask you later, I know. Even now, not all the impact assessments for the Bill are complete, but current cost estimates are running at £43 million direct costs to schools, and a further £394 million of absorbed costs, which already exceeds the lower estimate of cost, and is well over halfway to the higher estimate. So, will you commit to a regular update on costs, not just during the passage of this Bill, but beyond that, as I don't think it would really make for good scrutiny for us to be in a position where we try and winkle out this information from annual Senedd budgets, when much of this expenditure will actually be coming from local government?
So, thank you for your statement today. I look forward to further scrutiny on the powers the Bill contains, the place of modern foreign languages and life-saving skills and—I don't want this to be overlooked—the parallel work that Government will need to develop with school development services, Estyn and Qualifications Wales, on the standards, accountability and exams that go alongside this curriculum. They have to go hand in hand to command confidence and, indeed, to secure the Welsh Conservatives' support for the Bill in due course. But, for now, I wish you well in your aims for this legislation.

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I thank Suzy Davies for that series of questions? As she will have alluded to, the intention is that the curriculum will become statutory in all primary settings and year 7 of secondary settings for the start of the academic year 2022. So, undoubtedly, COVID has had an impact on planning—that is without a shadow of a doubt—but we still have a considerable period of time for schools to prepare.
She quotes figures that have responded to a survey that she has carried out, and I don't dispute that. I, too, have conversations with professionals who actually want to speed up the introduction of the curriculum. And because of the significant period of disruption that we have had, where we've had to suspend the national curriculum, they wonder why we would go back to the old when the new is here—the new dawn is almost upon us. So, I know many schools are already designing their curriculum, even though they're not required to at this date, to encompass the direction of travel that we're on. But, of course, absolutely, we have got to this point today in the spirit of co-construction—co-construction with our professionals, who will have the responsibility of bringing this alive for learners in Wales. We will continue to have those discussions going forward.
It's a 'yes' to providing regular updates around finance, and I just want to assure the Member that throughout this process, to the point that we've got to today—of course, what we're looking at today is the legislative underpinning. The real meat, of course, was published many, many, many months ago, in terms of the 'what matters' statements, the progression steps and the concepts of learning. So, schools have had an opportunity before now, of course, to engage in this.
But Estyn, Qualifications Wales and our school improvement services have been integral to the development to date; they have been part of that process of co-construction. Of course, Estyn will have a crucial role in checking the preparedness of settings to introduce the curriculum. Our school improvement services will have a crucial role in providing the professional learning and the support that schools will need. The Member is very well aware, because I know she keeps in close touch with Qualifications Wales, that they themselves are undertaking a piece of work in parallel with the new curriculum with regard to the impact that the new curriculum will have on our qualifications system. So, of course, that work will continue to move forward.
Suzy is quite right: the responsibility, the legal duty, to produce a curriculum lies with the headteacher of an individual school. It is the duty of the headteacher and the governing body to implement that curriculum within that particular setting. The curriculum guidance that I published in January sets out a very strong emphasis that in designing, developing and implementing the curriculum, the context of the school and the communities it serves should be at the forefront of the mind. The premise of the entire curriculum is that it's there to serve the needs of its local community by providing a curriculum that is appropriate to its learners.
Now, any of you who've spent any time in school know that, sometimes, teachers express their frustration when they are required to deliver a lesson because somebody in 1988 decided that it was their duty to do so to a class of children who are completely disinterested and have no understanding about why that is being required of them. That doesn't bring learning to life—that just brings everybody down. Now, we will have an opportunity to release the creative professionalism of our teaching workforce to be able to design a curriculum that truly meets the needs of the children in front of them.
Deputy Presiding Officer, let me give you an example. At my own daughter's school, Ysgol Calon Cymru, which serves the communities of Llandrindod Wells, Builth Wells and everywhere in between, they're beginning to think about how they do their new curriculum now. At the core of that curriculum is the concept of the clearance of Mynydd Epynt and of food miles and the sustainability of rural Wales. So, for year 9, all of their subjects are built around those concepts.
During this time, when they've been out of school, and in the work that's come home, again, they've engaged in the new curriculum. The theme has been artificial intelligence, and that has covered science, maths, Frankenstein—when I've had time to do any home schooling, we've been studying Frankenstein, Shelley's Frankenstein—that ability to bring individual disciplines together to make those connections. So, schools are already out there doing this work, but it's important that parents and communities have an opportunity to feed into that. The curriculum will have to be published, but we can certainly have conversations during the passage of the Bill about how we can ensure in guidance that the views of parents and young people themselves are taken into consideration when designing the curriculum. And if you go to our schools now, you know that pupil-centred learning, where pupils are driving and choosing the topics, is not a concept that is alien to our teachers; it's a concept that they understand and that they embrace.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Certainly, the publication of the draft Bill is an important milestone and, as the children's commissioner said this week, we must look at the new curriculum as a pledge to every child in Wales, and, in making that pledge, each and every one of us in this Senedd is duty bound to scrutinise this new legislation very carefully indeed in order to avoid unintended consequences and to ensure that the aim encapsulated within the curriculum will be delivered.
Now, in terms of implementation and the timetable for implementation, I can see your case that there are certain elements of the curriculum, elements that are already taking root in our schools, that are particularly pertinent in the context of the COVID crisis.
I am pleased to see a prominent place for health and well-being as an area of learning and experience, but it won't be a mandatory or required element within the legislation. The children's commissioner has argued this week that this Bill does need to go further than it goes at present in terms of safeguarding the well-being of children by ensuring that the legislation does make a whole-school approach to well-being and mental health a requirement under the legislation.
You have already published another statement today on the consultation on the guidance framework on rooting the whole-school approach to mental health and well-being, and you say in that statement that the purpose of the framework is to promote consistency and equality. So, why won't you take that extra step that the children's commissioner and others have called for, namely making mental health and well-being a requirement within the legislation?
And there is this element of making certain things mandatory, and others that also deserve the same level of legislative requirement are excluded from the legislation. We started this debate last week during the Plaid Cymru debate, and I think this will be a recurring theme during the Bill's journey through the Senedd over the next weeks.
There are some topics that are mandatory, and there are other cross-curricular elements that are also mandatory. So, I would like to ask: what are the criteria that you have applied before making these decisions, before deciding? What criteria actually underpin these decisions to include some things on a statutory basis and to exclude others?
And, finally, I am sure that you would agree that we need to evidence the need for new legislation before bringing it forward. This is a theme of our work in the Senedd in terms of bringing forward any new legislation: we need to demonstrate why it's required and necessary. And I agree with you: this legislation is required in order to develop a new curriculum within our schools. But, if I could just turn to one aspect, what pedagogical evidence do you have that you need to make English a mandatory element of the curriculum—what evidence do you have—and has any body or any educational expert or any other expert recommended that you should include this on the face of the Bill?

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I thank Siân Gwenllian? And can I say that I welcome very much the process we've now got to in terms of scrutiny? I have been in this Chamber long enough, both on that side of the house and on this side of the house, to know what a valuable process the scrutiny process of this Parliament is and how, often, legislation is stronger and better as a result of that. That's the whole point why many of us have dedicated significant decades of our adult lives campaigning for a Parliament. And, therefore, that scrutiny process is one that Ministers should welcome; it's not always comfortable, but certainly it's an important part of our democracy, is it not? And I'm sure that there will be some really valuable opportunities throughout the passage of the Bill to test and to challenge and, where necessary, to improve. I don't think that there is a Bill that's ever gone through the Parliament that hasn't been better as a result of that process, the parliamentary process.
With regard to health and well-being, well, this is one of the exciting developments within the curriculum, that health and well-being is one of the areas of learning and experience that we will legislate for in the Bill. And that covers a broad variety of subjects, both physical and mental health and well-being. And the importance of mental health is well catered for within the 'what matters' statements that lie beneath the individual AoLE. So, I believe that we have given a very, very clear steer of our expectation that in delivering—and you have a duty to deliver—the health and well-being AoLE, mental health and well-being will be an important part of that.
Can I thank Siân for drawing everybody's attention to the other written statement that's gone out today on the start of our consultation on our whole-school approach and the framework to support schools? That is a direct result, again, of scrutiny of this Parliament and the work of the Children, Young People and Education Committee on mental health and well-being for children. Because, whilst I would agree with her that there is a place for that as a subject within the curriculum, what the CYPE committee's report was very much about is that mental health and well-being cannot be achieved by our children simply by learning a lesson about it; we have to create the conditions within the school itself for it to be a healthy environment. So, everybody in the school, the environment of the school, everybody who works in that school, the whole ethos that underpins that school, should be there to support children's mental health and well-being. And that's not a 'nice to have' or something a bit out there, because we know that, without good mental health and well-being, children cannot learn; the learning simply will not sit. We have to address children's mental health and well-being and create an environment where they are happy and safe and feel secure, otherwise the learning will not be as successful as we would want it to be.
So, I hope that people will respond to the consultation and I hope that the framework gives justice to the work of the CYPE committee on 'Together for Mental Health'. The curriculum has plenty of opportunity to support children's mental health and well-being, but it has to be in our schools as more than simply an element of the curriculum.
Now, of course, I understand—my goodness me, I don't think that there has been a day since I took this job when I haven't had an e-mail from somebody who is very enthusiastic, very passionate, about why their subject needs to be on the face of the Bill. And I don't doubt that all of those people can make a very genuine case, but, if we were to do that, we'd end up where we are now, Deputy Presiding Officer, with a curriculum that is over-stuffed, unmanageable and has robbed the profession of its creativity, because it has reduced teaching to doing a tick-box exercise of everything that somebody over the years has decided has to be taught. And every week, almost, we have a story that, 'This needs to be part of the curriculum', and that has happened over many years. Well-meaning Ministers who have wanted to do the right thing and have been motivated by very noble intentions have added it onto the curriculum—they've stuck it onto the curriculum. And we've given ourselves something that is completely unmanageable. And, simply by listing it, that alone does not mean that that will be a well-delivered, quality lesson in that particular area.
So, quite rightly, the challenge is why we have focused on the subjects that we have in terms of the face of the Bill. Well, I hope that nobody here could disagree that ensuring that we attend to our children's literacy and numeracy is not up for question. These are the basic skills that individual children will need when they leave school.And, increasingly—and, my goodness me, haven't we all had a steep learning lesson in recent weeks—digital competency is also now that third element alongside literacy and numeracy. And perhaps—. I hope it will never happen, that our children will have to manage their way through a pandemic, but perhaps they'll be a little bit better at managing than how some of us have, and the calls of, 'You're on mute' or 'Mute yourself' will never be heard again should we find ourselves in that position. So, literacy, numeracy and digital competency—these are the core things that our children need when they leave school.
With regard to what was called religious education in 'Successful Futures', in the new curriculum, the name change to religion, values and ethics is reflective of the commitment and the recommendation of Graham Donaldson in the original 'Successful Futures', as is Welsh, the addition—. There are two additions above and beyond that, and that is, firstly, RSE. And, Siân, quite rightly, you've talked about children's mental health and well-being. Our relationships are fundamental to our health and well-being as human beings, aren't they? They are absolutely fundamental, and ensuring that our children can learn about rights, responsibilities, respect, diversity, safety, as I said, personal responsibility, to have safe, healthy relationships, I think, is fundamental. And it was a clear recommendation from the specialist group, chaired by Emma Reynolds, Professor Emma Reynolds, that I set up when I came into office.
And with regard to English, first of all, English in itself is a really important subject, and that's what we're talking about, a subject. I think sometimes—understandably, I'm not criticising—there is a misapprehension between the language of tuition and the medium of tuition as opposed to the subject. And this reflects my belief that we want to create all of our citizens as bilingual citizens. But, as I said, I recognise that there is a strong debate and there is a fear of unintended consequences as a result of that, and I have given my commitment in opening today that we will have ongoing discussions.

Mark Reckless AC: Thank you, Minister, very much for your statement. I think, within my group, there is a degree of scepticism around the new curriculum, but I think the passion with which the Minister speaks—we wish to remain engaged in the debate and we haven't, at this stage, decided to oppose it. We'd like to see the Bill in more detail and benefit further from discussions with the Minister.
She says that she wants a system that's a source of pride and enjoys public confidence, and I'm sure we would all agree with that. I also think, in principle, the idea that, 30 years on from a 1988 UK curriculum, it might be revised or reconsidered, in principle, isn't one we should rule out. She refers to a truly made-in-Wales curriculum. In that context, could I just ask a little about the role of Professor Donaldson, and in particular the changes that have happened with the Scottish curriculum that haven't been uniformly well written up, and what his role was with that and how it's different, what he's been doing with you, for Wales?
You refer to every school having the opportunity to design and implement their own curriculum. Can I clarify: is that a requirement for every school as well as an opportunity, or is there a national curriculum that the school can take and use, and then teachers have more discretion on what they do within it? Or does each school have to do this process, potentially a very substantial process, of developing their own curriculum?
I also just wonder about the balance between the traditional disciplines and the connections you're trying to build across the areas of learning and experience—for instance, health and well-being. I certainly know some parents and certainly some of my group have concerns as to what may happen to the rigour with which those traditional disciplines are taught in the new approach. Could she give some reassurance on that?
Can I also clarify: is she saying that she is open, potentially, to an amendment during this Bill as to whether English should be a mandatory curriculum element? I may have misunderstood this, but are Plaid Cymru arguing from their previous debate that Welsh should stay as a mandatory requirement but English should be removed from the face of the Bill as a mandatory requirement? Is that really the proposal, and, if so, is that something that she would genuinely consider?
And she refers to children knowing their own history, democracy and environment, and I think we can all agree with that as a phrase, but it leaves open to what extent is that history, and democracy particularly, specifically, Welsh and to what extent is it a common British experience.
She refers to more people taking a science GCSE, which is great. What about modern foreign languages? Can this new curriculum address the decline in these?
And finally, she refers to issuing a progression code with mandatory elements. Could we consider as part of that independently set standard assessment tests at age 11?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Deputy Presiding Officer, I think the Member has thrown down a challenge to me, one that I'm very happy to pick up, to convince him of why he needs to support the change in our curriculum.
The duty will lie on each individual school, each individual headteacher to design a curriculum, and then the legal duty then falls to the headteacher and the governing body to implement that curriculum. They need to do that with regard to, as outlined in the Bill, the four purposes and the individual areas of learning and experience, and then with reference to our 'what matters'. Of course, they were all published earlier on this year. So, there is scaffolding around our expectations of the broad areas that we would expect to be covered. So, in answer to Siân Gwenllian, lessons that would focus on helping to develop children's mental health and well-being, but the topics, for instance, in which you would choose to do that will vary from school to school that is reflective of the children in front.
Now, we recognise, because this curriculum is a curriculum for three to 16, that some of our nursery settings in the non-maintained settings—. So, as part of our foundation phase, Welsh Government funds that setting to deliver early years education. We recognise that some of those are run by charities, some of them are run by small groups, and, therefore, that would be a particularly onerous task for that part of the sector to design a curriculum for them. So, the Welsh Government will have a set curriculum for that age group, so that, as I said, those foundation phase nurseries can actually take that off the shelf, because that would be a very onerous task for that particular part of the sector. But, otherwise, it will be for individual headteachers, using the national scaffolding, to design a curriculum that meets the needs of their children.
The Member asked about the roles and responsibilities of Graham Donaldson, and any linkages and crossovers between our new curriculum and Curriculum for Excellence in Scotland. Well, sometimes people make comparisons, and there are certainly some broad philosophical approaches around devolution of curriculum down to schools, the move away from very strict disciplines and a more cross-curricular approach that both curriculums share. I think we've been at the advantage of understanding where implementation has struggled in Scotland. So, I don't think it's the concept of the curriculum, and I think if you look at the criticisms of what's happened in Scotland, it's not the actual curriculum itself; it is the implementation process that people have found particularly challenging. Because we've been able to learn from that, in fact, we've gone out of our way to try and understand what the difficulties have been in Scotland. Some of that was around, in the very beginning, not enough guidance, and then people got really panicky, because there wasn't enough scaffolding for schools, so then there was a whole industry providing advice and guidance to schools, which meant that teachers got completely overwhelmed with that. So, we've been able to learn from some of the challenges of implementation. So, I think there's a distinction to be made between the curriculum itself and then the implementation process that supports schools going forward.
We will also give a greater level of direction around the content of the RSE curriculum—the relationships and sexuality curriculum—based on the principles from the United Nations. So, we will give greater direction in that regard.
Siân Gwenllian can speak for herself, but I think, if I can—I'm in danger of putting words in Siân's mouth. The issue itself is not with English being on the face of the Bill; it is the unintended consequence of having English on the face of the Bill on the principle of immersion education. So, they're not out to get the English language; that's not what this is about. This is about whether there would be an unintended consequence of English's inclusion on the face of the Bill with regard, then, as I said, to immersion education. Now, the Bill allows for the statutory requirement for English to be suspended to allow for Welsh immersion education, and that's important because we know, in terms of successful language acquisition, immersion is a well-tried, well-tested, really, really important way in which children can acquire Welsh language skills. And I say that as someone whose children have been in that system. Without my children's ability to go to a meithrin, and to go to a Welsh-medium primary school where they did no English, no formal English, until the age of seven, my children would not be bilingual English and Welsh speakers. It is that process that we know makes the difference. There is a concern that the way in which the Bill is currently drafted may undermine that. Now, as I said, I don't believe that, and I think there is some confusion about the language of tuition and the medium of tuition in the school as opposed to the curriculum. But I don't want to in any way undermine the principle of immersion or to ensure that immersion cannot happen. The Bill allows for immersion to happen and for English to be suspended, but there is a concern that that still hasn't got enough safeguards to support immersion, and I'm open to a conversation about what more we can do not to do down the English language, but to ensure and safeguard Welsh immersion, because we know that that is really important and we know that it works. So, I hope I haven't put words in your mouth, but I think that's where some people at least are coming from when it comes to this debate.
With regard to history and democracy and the environment, this brings us back to the principle ofcynefinwithin the new curriculum, and how children learn about the rest of the world first by learning about their own locale. It is by engaging with your own locality and your own history that you can begin to expand your thinking into the wider world. So, Siân last week in the debate talked about her local history and its connection with a slave-trading family, and she didn't know about that. The issue is, you can learn about that in your primary school and you can understand that and you know it because you can see it, but from that then you can go on to have a conversation about British history, world history and the principle of slavery. So, it's about taking the connections from your locale for our very youngest children and then learning out about the world from that principle.
Sorry. I've waited four and a bit years for this.

We have four more speakers and we have very little time, but at least we'll see where we go. I'm sure now that's out of your system perhaps we'll move on to some shorter answers. [Laughter.]

Kirsty Williams AC: Okay. I've been told. And I'm glad to be back as well. I've missed everybody. [Laughter.]

I'll let you off. Lynne Neagle. No, we can't hear. Sorry, Lynne, we can't hear you.

Lynne Neagle AC: Can you hear me now?

That's better, yes. Fine, thank you.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, and thank you, Minister, for your statement. As you're aware, the committee has done a great deal of work in this Senedd scrutinising the progress on the development of the curriculum to date, and I'm certainly looking forward to the committee undertaking the Stage 1 scrutiny of this Bill.
I do want to give a very, very warm welcome to the publication of the guidance on a whole-school approach to mental health, which was published today. As the Minister knows, I've been very involved in the development of that guidance through the ministerial task and finish group and the stakeholder group, and I'd like to thank everybody that's been involved in it and encourage all Members to read it. I've read lots of Welsh Government documents over the years, but I've never read one that has filled me with such hope on this issue. I'd also like to thank the Minister for listening to representations from myself and from third sector organisations like Samaritans Cymru and Mind, and placing this on a statutory footing, because our children's mental health is too precious to be left to chance.
So, with that in mind, I'm sure that the Minister knows me well enough by now to know that I will still want to scrutinise very carefully the arrangements within the Bill to deliver the mental health aspects of the health and well-being area of learning experience, and I would just like to ask the Minister to say a little bit more about how she believes the whole-school approach guidance will fit in with the attempts in the curriculum to deliver that very important area for our children and young people's mental health.

Kirsty Williams AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, can I thank Lynne Neagle for her contribution this afternoon and thank her for the support for the consultation that has gone out today? Everybody in this Chamber knows how passionately Lynne feels about this specific subject. Everybody here will also know that she is a hard taskmaster, and if she's happy with it, it must mean that it's a good document. So I'm really pleased that we've been able to meet your expectation, and that is down, as you said, to the hard work of many, many people who have not let the Government move an inch away from the principles that were set out in 'Mind over matter'.
As I said to Siân Gwenllian, I don't think we can leave mental health and well-being simply as a subject within the curriculum. A whole-school approach is more than just the curriculum, it is about that entire environment. Clearly, how this mixes in together is that, when designing—. If we're to have a whole-school approach and we're going to put that guidance on a statutory footing, in designing a curriculum then the headteacher and the governing body will have to be mindful of that whole-school approach and will have to think about children's mental health and well-being in designing that curriculum, not just as a subject, but the overall approach to how that curriculum is designed and, crucially, how that curriculum is then implemented within a school. So that's how the two link up together.
As I said to Siân Gwenllian, it's very clear in the 'what matters' statements; the emphasis on mental health and well-being is part of the health and well-being AoLE and, actually, mental health could be one of the topics that actually can be talked about not just in health and well-being, but can be talked about in language, it can be taught in science, it can be taught in humanities. So that's how I envisage the curriculum being taken forward. But I'm very grateful for Lynne's dedication to this agenda, and as I said, if she's pleased, then I'm pleased.

Rhianon Passmore AC: It's correct to say that the current curriculum devised in 1988 by a Westminster Government is not fit, as has been said, for contemporary Wales and the pedagogical need, as consensually agreed across this Chamber, to continue to develop higher standards of literacy, numeracy and critical digital thinking, and for our students to become confident, capable and compassionate citizens of Wales runs throughout the new curriculum. Will the Minister outline how the new proposed progression code seeks to ensure the continuation of rising standards and how moving to the six broader areas of learning experience will better prepare our Welsh pupils to become international citizens of the world?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Rhianon. The progression code, Welsh Ministers will have to produce as a result of this. Our progression steps are already out there in the public domain and this is to give an assurance of a national approach for where we would expect children to be, because whilst of course we want to respect individual institutions in designing their curriculum, we have to have assurance that children will be moving forward and the expectations of what children can do are the same across a national basis.
With regard to global citizenship, again, this is one of the four purposes that are laid out within the Bill. Forgive me, I did not answer Mr Reckless's question about modern foreign languages. In answering Siân Gwenllian—. In opening the statement today, I said that I hope children will become at least bilingual citizens. The curriculum actually is very clear about our expectations of bringing foreign languages into primary schools on a consistent basis. Some of our primary schools already do that, and they do it very well, but actually this tries to address some of the challenges that we undoubtedly have in MFL take-up—and there's no point my pretending we haven't got a challenge in MFL take-up, certainly at 14, 16 and 18. This ability to bring that learning earlier on into a child's life is one way in which we hope to address that deficit. Learning a foreign language is one of the ways in which we can develop our understanding of the world around us and to become that global citizen.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Minister. I particularly was very pleased to hear you say that the relationship and sexuality education is going to have much more direction to it than some other parts of the curriculum. So, I won't ask you about that. I wanted to explore some of the complexities of your ambition, and I fully support it, to ensure that it's a duty on the headteacher to design the curriculum that's fit for that school, and the governing body to implement it. I want to just relate this to the demands of the Black Curriculum, which is a voluntary organisation set up at the beginning of 2019, obviously wanting to ensure that all UK schools incorporate black histories into the curriculum so that pupils have a full and accurate version of British history, which I think is an entirely laudable aspiration and one that we absolutely need to have if we're going to have a cohesive society.
So, Mount Stuart Primary School, I am absolutely confident that they already have a really vibrant multicultural offer to their pupils. Under the leadership of Betty Campbell, it was already a template for that. Similarly, in many of the schools in my constituency, which will have a wonderful range of multicultural intake, this idea of people coming from different parts of the world with different cultures will already be well embedded into their thinking. But I just wondered how you think we're going to ensure that all schools with less rich intake will be enabled to address some of the more uncomfortable aspects of our culture and, frankly, racist aspects of our culture just as effectively as those schools that have that multiculturalism already built into them. Because we obviously need to ensure that all our pupils are ethically informed citizens.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you for that. Just to confirm to Jenny, the Bill requires Welsh Ministers to publish a code setting out the core learning to be undertaken in the relationships and sex education curriculum, and that falls under the headings of rights and equity, relationships, sex, gender and sexuality, bodies and body image, sexual health and well-being, violence, safety and support. Those are the United Nations principles that make up what they regard as adequate RSE education.
With regard to history, or, as I like to call it, Wales's 'histories'—and I've got into trouble for saying that—that just tells you that we have to have a pluralistic approach to teaching our history, don't we? And only last week we talked about women's history, black history, working class history. Wales is made up of a multitude of stories, and we have to start that from the very beginning within our cynefin. But you're right—we have to explore that, and it isn't just in our most diverse communities. So, absolutely, we do have to talk about the race riots here in Cardiff; we do have to talk about some of the unpleasantness that we saw in some of our other cities, and the lived experience of those people who are black, Asian and minority ethnic who came and contributed to Wales. We need to talk about the Irish experience in Merthyr Tydfil and the contribution the Irish community made to our Valleys communities, our Asian community made to our NHS and our ability to deliver an NHS.
Some of that is uncomfortable—for the weavers of mid Wales, the weavers of mid Wales who made their money on the basis of weaving cloth that clothed the slaves on the slave ships. It's not something that is comfortable to talk about. The reason why so many black Americans have Welsh surnames—. I am currently reading the biography of Frederick Douglass, and his first owners—the family to which he was enslaved from the moment of his birth—were of Welsh descent; they were Lloyds. There was Hugh Lloyd—they were Welsh, and we have to confront that, even it it makes us uncomfortable. And there is provision in here to say that our expectation in our 'what matters' is that we expect our histories to be taught in a pluralistic way that challenges both the amazing contributions of Welsh people within our nation and across the world, and sometimes things that should make us feel a bit uncomfortable.

Neil McEvoy AC: I usually contribute in English because I am more confident in English, because when I was a school pupil, I wasn't able to learn Welsh—there wasn't a word of Welsh taught until I did an Wlpan course. Now, that was an immersion course. And then, last week, I was very concerned when the Labour Party, and the Minister, and Plaid Cymru, voted against immersion teaching.

Neil McEvoy AC: So, I'm looking for an assurance, really, and it's an equality issue—and I say this as an English-language-first Welshman, because I didn't know a word of Welsh until I was 32, and I remember a Danish person speaking to me in Spain in Welsh, and I thought he was speaking to me in Danish. That's how embarrassing my education was. So, I believe passionately that immersion classes should be freely available for teachers and for pupils. So, my question really is: why was that voted against last week?
Since it's come up, I want to touch on what I'm hearing in this Chamber about the BAME community. I find it quite insulting, really. We have people of many communities in Wales—many of us are not white, many of us are from all parts of this planet, and we make up a wonderful nation called Wales. And I remember Betty Campbell, the first black headteacher in Wales, when she was labelled as a 'BME'; we say 'BAME' nowadays—and she said, 'I ain't no BME. I am Welsh'. And I just want to echo support there for the Minister, actually, in saying that we have many histories here in Wales. I want to get away from this divisiveness, where we have the so-called BAME community. There are many of us who are not white—many of us—and we're not just one community. We never say the 'white community', and we've got to stop this divisive language, and we need to appreciate what we have in Wales, and we should talk about what unites us and all of our histories. Diolch.

Kirsty Williams AC: I think I have tried today, both in my opening statement and in responding to questions from Siân Gwenllian and Mark Reckless, to absolutely reiterate my support of and the importance of Welsh immersion here in Wales as a tried and tested way in which we can ensure language acquisition. And in fact, the Welsh Government tries to support and has ambitious targets for Welsh-medium education. In questions earlier, we talked about the £1.68 million that we're spending in Merthyr Tydfil to increase the availability of Welsh-medium education. The challenges are numerous, in terms of, for instance, making sure that the quality of our Welsh-medium education within our English-medium settings needs to be better than it is. Because even with the targets of the Welsh in education strategic plans, many children will continue to go to an English school, where English is the medium of tuition, and we want those children to make progression in the Welsh language. I want all of our children to leave our schools being able to use both languages in their daily lives, regardless of whether they went to a Welsh-medium school, whether they go to a bilingual school, or whether they go to an English-medium school. That's the ambition that this curriculum and the progression steps lay out in front of us. And I don't think there is anybody in this Chamber, in any political party, that disagrees with that. The question is: is the way in which the legislation is currently framed the right way to deliver it?
And I can just say, I was very careful—I deliberately talk about Welsh histories because our nation is made up of contributions from people of all races, who have had a unique story to tell about their relationship with Wales, whether they came here, whether they were born here. And all of that needs to be encompassed, and we should never make the—. I don't think we should make the distinction between, 'It's your history, and our history'. There is a multitude of stories to be told about the nation.

Thank you very much, Minister. I'm pleased that you're pleased to be back. Even though there were some long answers, we'll let you off; you won't get that next week, if you're responding to anything next week. [Laughter.]

7. Statement by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs: Sustainable Farming: the future of agriculture support

Item 7 on the agenda is a statement by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs on the future of agricultural support, and I call on the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today, I want to outline the next steps the Welsh Government is taking to develop proposals for future agricultural support in Wales. Last year, the Welsh Government published the 'Sustainable Farming and our Land' consultation. It outlined proposals for a new system of financial support for farmers, and also proposed sustainable land management be adopted as the policy framework to deliver the support.

Lesley Griffiths AC: The consultation presented a case for future funding to support and reward farmers who operate sustainable farming systems. In a world where future trade agreements are likely to open up our markets to a greater degree of competition, demonstrating the sustainability of food produced on Welsh farms with high animal welfare and environmental standards is likely to be increasingly important. The framework would also allow us to support the production of sustainable food and deliver against our environmental justice commitments.
We received over 3,300 responses to the consultation. I again wish to thank those who took the time to read, consider and respond to it. In May, I published an independent analysis of the responses, and today I am publishing the policy response to the consultation. The range of views expressed in the responses reflect the broad scope of the proposals in the consultation. Upon careful consideration of these and the range of views expressed during the process, I continue to propose a future system of agricultural support designed around the sustainable land management framework.
The competitiveness of the farming sector in Wales was raised as a key issue in many responses, with some arguing a focus on environmental outcomes would harm the financial viability of Welsh farming. The proposed approach would provide an important income stream for farmers, recognising the important work they do in delivering environmental outcomes and rewarding them for it. In addition, we are seeking to reinforce the long-term competitiveness of the sector through enhanced business advice and support. This will help support farmers in the new economic realities following the UK’s departure from the EU. The competitiveness of farming, food production and improved environmental resilience are complementary agendas and our proposals are clear in this regard. A sustainable land management approach will allow us to respond to the climate emergency, will help to reverse biodiversity decline, will ensure high standards of animal health and welfare, and will protect our natural resources. Food produced using this approach will be sustainable, ensuring a food supply for future generations.
In light of this, the Welsh Government has agreed to continue its development of proposals for a scheme based on the sustainable land management framework. A range of options will be explored, all of which will be judged in terms of cost, benefit and compliance with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. To support the development of our proposals, we are undertaking a range of economic analysis to understand the impact of moving from an entitlement-based income support scheme to a voluntary scheme that rewards the production of outcomes. We are expecting output from this analysis next summer and I will ensure this is publicly available.
No decision on any future scheme will be made before I've considered the results of the analysis and taken all other relevant considerations into account. To enable farmers to adjust their existing business model to accommodate any changes required by the proposed scheme, there will be a transition period. Before the end of this Senedd term, I will publish a White Paper that will pave the way for the introduction of an agriculture (Wales) Bill during the sixth Senedd term. I propose this Bill be strategic in scope, setting a support framework that can accommodate the development of agriculture and forestry within Wales for the next 15 to 20 years. The Bill will enable farmers to be financially supported and ensure a coherent and fair system of regulation can be applied to the agricultural sector. Over the coming months, we will continue to engage with stakeholders to enable the ongoing development of these proposals for the White Paper.
To ensure farmers are supported following the UK exit from the EU, I intend to launch a consultation later in the summer to seek views on the retention and simplification of rules around agricultural support for farmers and the rural economy. This support would bridge the gap between the current EU funding and any new scheme based on sustainable land management. The UK Government’s ongoing delays in confirming the level of replacement funding are frustrating and are delaying detailed forward planning.
Globally, it has been an extremely challenging few months, and Welsh farmers, of course, have not been exempt from recent circumstances. I am proud of the resilience they have shown in responding to those difficulties. Farmers, foresters and other land managers play a vital part in the economic, environmental and social well-being of Wales. We will continue to support them to adapt to economic and political changes, as well as the impact of climate change.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, thank you for your statement. Today I started my day about half-past four this morning, loading lambs and ewes to go up to Raglan market. And when I was reading your statement, I have to say that, if I was talking to farmers in Raglan market today, I'm not sure I'd feel any more confidence in what might be coming down the tracks to take the place of what is currently the support package that is available to farmers here in Wales after extensive consultations by your department. And I appreciate there are various voices saying, 'There should be a pause because of COVID' and we can understand that, because obviously COVID has changed the complete landscape we're working in at the moment. You just need to go on to any website, now, and see that £500 million of extra money is coming to the Welsh Government because of announcements by the Chancellor today. Those are unprecedented sums of money that will be coming into the Welsh Government's coffers and it'll be for the Government to determine how it'll allocate that money accordingly.
But I do think it's a fair question, given the amount of energy that the department has put into this particular exercise, and rightly so because it is a transformation agenda—what exactly can we see, going forward, that will give confidence to farmers that the support will be coming through to sustain the rural communities that depend on this money, as the UK Government has committed, in the lifetime of this Parliament, to ring-fence that money and pass it to Welsh Government? And as I understand it, the current First Minister has indicated that that money will be passported through to farms, if it comes in that rural envelope. And so I'd be grateful for that answer from you so that people can understand the journey that you're going to undertake now in the department.
I would like to understand as well how much of a greater emphasis you're putting on the food security element in any discussions and debates that you're having internally, on the basis that we've seen what happened in the early part of the COVID crisis. Consumers, our voters, our constituents, put a huge amount of weight on local produce and understanding where that produce comes from, and I would suggest that food production is a public good. Do you identify with that, rather than just leaving it to the vagaries of the market? It is a public good that does need an element of support from Government, which I know is a point that you and I have debated over this despatch box over time.
I'd also like to understand what economic analysis has been going on in the department, especially as you're going to be bringing forward a White Paper before the Assembly goes into dissolution. Because, of course, into this mix we have to bear in mind that there will be an Assembly election. I'm sure you'll be fighting tooth and nail to retain a Labour Government here in Wales. Not unreasonably, I'll be fighting tooth and nail to make Paul Davies the First Minister and put a Conservative Government in. But I'm just stating the blindingly obvious. I'm just stating the blindingly obvious, in the next eight to nine months—[Interruption.] From this statement, there might be preparatory work by this particular Government, but there will be a new Government after May of next year, assuming, obviously, that the elections do go ahead.So, it is important to understand what economic analysis is undertaken by the department on any proposals that it is bringing forward. And will you be making that economic analysis available, so that people can understand the thinking behind some of the work that's going on?
You touch, in your statement, about a voluntary scheme. I think the way you word it is an entitlement-based scheme to a voluntary scheme. Well, the current scheme is a voluntary scheme, because you don't have to actually subscribe to it, you don't. So, you seem to be putting a heavy distinction on this wording. I'd be grateful if you could flesh out exactly your thinking on this—why you believe that it'll be a greater voluntary effort of a farmer/landowner in Wales to sign up to your scheme than maybe it would be under the current scheme, given that you put such emphasis on it in your speech.
You also touch on a transition period from the current scheme to whatever will take its place. I've touched on the election that will happen next year. We don't have an agricultural Bill here in Wales, although there are huge powers within the UK agricultural Bill, and you, as Minister, and the Welsh Government, sought, obviously, to protect that transition. In that Bill, there is the ability to have the current schemes in place until 2024. Do you envisage a transition scheme that would take that length of time and so, therefore, you would be able to use the current model of support up until that time? Or are you looking at a far shorter transition period?
My final point, and with the indulgence of the Deputy Presiding Officer, as I remember from last week—[Laughter.]—all power to your elbow on the simplification around the common agricultural policy rules and guidance that are out there at the moment. I have to say, as a Member of some 13-years standing, I have stood here many, many times and heard Ministers, of all shapes and sizes, talk about simplification of rules and regulations. I'd be most grateful, and I can see one of your predecessors behind you there, and I can remember him standing here talking about simplification very often—so I'd be grateful to understand what your thinking is about how you can do this, because all power to your elbow, as I said. I wish you well on that. But very often, when Government sets about a simplification agenda, it ends up with a whole new raft of new regulations and rules that complicate the picture even more.
And my final point, if I may, is that your department does have several reports from the auditor general around the rural development plan. The rural development plan is a distinctively Welsh plan that was devised here in Wales by the Welsh Government. Based on those reports and the efforts of the department, it doesn't give me confidence going forward that the department is well placed to devise these new measures for Welsh agriculture and the Welsh countryside. I hope that you will address some of those issues in maybe your brief response to me, to give me and others confidence that when it comes to the RDP, we shouldn't read everything into it across for these new measures that you're bringing forward for sustainable farming.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Andrew R.T. Davies, for that long list of questions—I will try to answer them all. I think you're right, we've had two lengthy consultation processes, and we have had to pause the work. I'm not as far ahead as I would have wanted to be, but you will appreciate, with the COVID-19 pandemic—that was the focus and continues to be the focus. But I did think it was important to bring this statement to the Senedd to inform Members where we are in the process. I wanted to assure people that I will be bringing a White Paper forward before the end of this Senedd term. I had hoped we would have had a draft agricultural Bill, but I think the length of time that the EU transition period has been, and, obviously, with the delays that we've had this year, that's clearly not going to be the case. But I thought it was very encouraging to see the broad level of support for the sustainable land management framework. So, there is now going to be continual analysis of that, with modelling et cetera going over the next few months. I'm very conscious, when I was saying in my statement, 'I will be doing this, I will be doing that', that, of course, there is an election next May. But I think it is important to maintain that momentum. It's very important for the agricultural sector. So, consequently, I was wanting to update Members.
Around the funding—as I say, we haven’t had confirmation about the level of funding, but you are right, the First Minister has said that funding will be hypothecated for agriculture for this period.
Food security is a really interesting point, because you're quite right—you and I and others have argued around public goods and whether food is indeed a public good, but it's got a market, so it can't be. However, food security is obviously very important. And, as you say, we saw that panic buying in the initial stages of the pandemic in a way that perhaps we thought might happen if there was a 'no deal' Brexit. And, clearly, people did feel fearful, I think, that there wouldn't be enough food. And you're absolutely right, our farmers stepped up to the plate, along with many people in the food supply chain, to make sure, as a nation, we didn't go hungry, and we are very grateful to them for that.
So, what we want to do is continue to have a focus on the sector producing sustainable, high-quality food that meets consumers' needs. You're right, there's been a real push, I think, from members of the public to buy locally produced food. We've seen a huge increase in the number of local butchers that have been used, and I've had some very interesting conversations with our Welsh food and drink producers over the last three or four months. Some of them have really embraced online sales, for instance, and we were able to support them in relation to packaging et cetera, and we want to lock in that behaviour, so that people will continue to buy locally. So, we know that whilst, obviously, farms in Wales can only produce a part of the varied diet that we need to sustain health—and trade is very important—I think we want to do all we can to ensure that food security is enabled by produce from Wales being supplemented by imported food, but that food has also got to be to standards that we see here in Wales.
You're right about the Agriculture Bill that's currently going through the UK Government, and we are looking to take powers from that. It was really important, if we're going to pay our farmers next year, that we took those powers, and that's why we sought to do that.
You mentioned 2024, and I think, realistically, we're not going to be able to transition to a new scheme much before 2024, if indeed before that. You talked about confidence in the new scheme. So, conversations I've had with many farmers—and probably yourself included, and certainly, I was talking to Future Farmers of Wales; I had a meeting with them a couple of weeks ago—they don't think that the basic payment scheme has made them resilient enough. They want to have this scheme because they do think it will help build that resilience. So, I am confident that the outcomes that we seek within this scheme will make sure that we have that resilient agricultural sector that we want.
Around the simplification, I absolutely get that. We haven't worked out the details of that. Again, that is one thing that has been paused over the past few months, but, as I say, we will launch a consultation—it says in my notes 'in the summer', but, clearly, we're in the summer now, so I'm not quite sure. But I'm certainly not in a position to be able to do that in the political summer yet.
You mentioned around Rural Payments Wales, and I'm grateful to Audit Wales for that report, and obviously officials will be responding to that in due course and will be providing evidence to the Public Accounts Committee, and that's absolutely the place where it should be properly considered. I do just want to say, though—and I think the report does make very clear—the issue is value for money. It was not properly tested in the appraisal of projects, and I know officials have reviewed the projects concerned to ensure they do in practice deliver value for money and where appropriate take action to ensure we do achieve value for money, including retendering some projects. So, work had already been undertaken in some of the areas, so I do have confidence in RPW and they've worked very hard on this process and getting this scheme out to consultation. As I say, we're not as far ahead as I would have preferred to have been, but, clearly—. I think the next stage is probably more exciting, but I think it's really important that we pause at the moment, reflect on the responses, and I hope Members will have read the document.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. I'll just start by maybe asking you to explain a few inconsistencies that I think I'm spotting in your statement and in the associated policy response document that you published to go with the statement today. You tell us in your statement that you'llbe undertaking a range of economic analyses to understand the impact of moving from one system to another—you've already elaborated slightly on that—and that you're expecting output from the analysis next summer, but in the next breath you say that before the end of this Senedd term—so, that's long before next summer and before the economic impact analysis is going to be available—you'll be publishing a White Paper, paving the way for the introduction of an agriculture (Wales) Bill. So, really, is that not putting the cart before the horse because you're proposing legislation before you know what the economic impact is going to be?
And later on you tell us in the statement that the UK Government's ongoing delays in confirming the level of replacement funding are frustrating and are delaying detailed forward planning—and I couldn't agree more—but how, then, can you do the economic analysis of the impact of a new support system if you don't know how much money is coming to Wales? Because if we get £5 million, it will have a certain impact; if we have £105 million, it'll have a very different economic impact. So, it suggests to me that you're working blind somewhat here and the risk is, of course, that you get it horribly wrong.
I'd like you to elaborate further on the consultation that you mentioned may or may not happen this summer—exactly when it's happening, you weren't sure—about retaining and the simplification of rules around agricultural support for farmers and the rural economy. What kind of rules are you looking at here? Which rules in particular? Just give us an example, because I just want to understand exactly what you're trying to achieve and where you're targeting that consultation.
You tell us in your statement that some are arguing that the focus on environmental outcomes would harm the financial viability of Welsh farming. I don't agree it would harm the economic viability of Welsh farming. I think, actually, that payment for public goods offers huge opportunities, and we have to reflect the climate and ecological crisis that we face within land management policy as we do across all Government policies. But, of course, my issue, as you know, is that you're framing this as an either/or situation. You're giving us the proposal that either we have payment for public goods or we retain a basic payment. Now, I don't agree that it is that either/or situation. Doing away in totality with at least an element of a direct payment I believe carries with it too much risk that you'll actually lose those family farms that you're actually depending upon to deliver the environmental outcomes that we all want to see. And, of course, what that will do is it will further entrench the power imbalance thatwe have within the food supply chain, leaving Welsh farms to a greater extent at the whim of a dysfunctional market, which is overwhelmingly, of course, controlled by a very small number of very, very large retailers, and that'll actually weaken, and not strengthen, the sector's resilience in many ways. You say that the production of food is rewarded by the market—those are your words. Well, if COVID-19 has taught us anything, it's underlined once and for all that, actually, food production isn't always rewarded by the market, and very often it's exploited by the market, and exploited to the detriment of our family farms, our rural economy and wider rural community. So, taking away any direct support leaves those farms, I fear, even more exposed, and Brexit, of course, will make things even worse. So, that's why I would prefer a hybrid model. Yes, let's ramp up the public goods support, but also retain at least an element of direct support.
Now, finally from me, you refer to the advisory service and you say that you're going to commission an independent and objective assessment of the effectiveness of Farming Connect—you tell us in your policy response document—to help shape the design of future advisory support, and I think that's the perfectly right thing to do, but, of course, developing on what was said earlier about some of the issues that have recently been exposed in relation to the RDP by the Auditor General for Wales, the risk is, of course, that, in carrying over the RDP approach, effectively, into the new system that is being proposed, then you risk, of course, carrying over something where maybe we haven't learnt the lessons that we need to learn in terms of the way it's been delivered, whether—. You know, we certainly haven't assessed effectively enough, I think, the impact of the RDP thus far—the value-for-money stuff and the cost-effectiveness issues that were highlighted by the auditor general—and I know a number of people are calling for an independent review into the RDP. So, if you're willing to have an independent and objective assessment of certain elements, then surely you should be willing to have that wider take on the situation before we actually implant it at the heart of the new system that we're moving towards.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llyr, for those questions. Sorry, I didn't answer Andrew R.T. Davies's point around the economic analysis, and, at the moment, we're currently procuring to engage an independent consultant to examine the effect of the proposals on the agriculture economy of Wales, and then—. It's a complex piece of work and, when it's received, if it's myself, then I would certainly be able to publish that, but I think it is going to take a little while, because it is such a complex piece of work.
It's also really important to examine the estimated economic effects of the proposals on farm businesses—I think that is really important—as well as across the different farm sectors and the different farm regions in Wales. And Llyr talked about the environmental outcomes of different—well, you didn't say about different farms, you were talking about the environmental outcomes, and what's really important, and one of the questions that I was constantly asked was, 'Would there be farms that could not produce any environmental outcomes?', and I think the answer is, 'No, we think all farms of all types and all different sizes are able to produce environmental outcomes, and are doing so now, but not getting the rewards for them.'
So, we hope that every farm will be able to attract payments under the proposed sustainable farming scheme and that's why it's really important to do economic analysis and also modelling. So, further modelling will take place over the coming months. You're right about the EU transition period and leaving the EU, because we know that future trade relationships will have the potential to impact many areas of environment and rural affairs, and, whilst we don't know the level of funding, what we were told is we would not lose a penny, so that is the basis on which I work and officials work on bringing forward this scheme.
I think you make a very important point about COVID-19 and the concern about exploitation of some of our farm producers, and I went to great lengths to meet with the retail forum regularly—I met with them again this morning—to make sure that wasn't happening. We heard about a couple of incidents where supermarkets rationalised their produce on offer, but it was really important that they didn't cut out Welsh producers, and we didn't want thatexploitation to happen. Food production has always been really important to me, and it was always part of the consultations. If you look at the UK Government consultation, I don't think the word 'food' appeared at all. We always made sure that it worked, and we're doing a piece of work now on sustainable brand values, and we're linking that with our food production and our food security. I mentioned in my answer to Andrew around the Wales Audit Office report, but, clearly, that risk that you refer to is something that, obviously, I was concerned about, and, as officials respond to that report in the audit committee, then we can—. Once that report has been scrutinised in the way it should be, then we can look at it. But we are having ongoing review of delivery of the RDP; if problems are identified that we can address then we will need to do that, but I think it is really important that we do get it right ahead of any scheme coming forward, because the last thing I want to do is make it more complex or more difficult.
But I go back to what I was saying to Andrew about the BPS and people saying that did not provide the resilience that's needed, and so, whilst I don't want to rush to transition, I don't think it's helpful not to have the scheme in place, but realistically I don't think it will be before 2024. But I want to make sure that everybody has the opportunity to participate, everybody gets rewarded for those public goods that they're providing—that air quality, the soil quality, the water quality. That's not happening now.

Mandy Jones AC: I welcome the opportunity to contribute today and fly the flag for our agricultural sector. I live in a farming community, and I used to work in it as a farm hand on mixed farms and also as a shepherdess. While I worked within this community, I had to comply with some of the rules and regulations imposed on us by the EU, such as cutting down milk quotas. Watching my farmers having to throw gallons of milk away twice a day after milking, as it was against the rules to even give it away, was totally devastating. Then you had the heavy restrictions, the mass bureaucracy and the actual payments to large, wealthy landowners for not actually farming their own land—that never made any sense to me. I watched small farms collapse and I saw grown men crying. My Euroscepticism grew out of working within that framework.
Your response to the changing circumstances brought about by our exit from the EU is considered and has taken some time from the initial consultation. That is not a criticism. Any change of this scale and nature has to be well-thought-through, discussed and then discussed again with those who will be working within it, and it's clear that that is indeed the case here. I welcome the proposal for the White Paper in the next Senedd term, and the ongoing work that will inform the content.
Some in this Chamber will celebrate the fact that the UK is currently in the process of trade negotiations with the rest of the world; others will have reservations about standards and competition. So, I am pleased that, just last week, the UK trade Secretary announced a trade and agriculture commission to influence animal welfare standards and competition in our quest for world-wide trade. NFU Cymru was involved in this, and will remain involved, it appears. Can I ask you what your views are on this commission, although it is early days, and what discussions did Liz Truss have with you before it was agreed? And are collaborative discussions now taking place between all UK Governments in terms of common frameworks, trade and all associated matters? What assurances can you give those in the sector that continuity of some sort of support will be available while they are transitioning—although I think you've answered part of that—from one scheme to another?
I really appreciate the focus on sustainable land management and the public good in your proposals. This appears to create the bridge we need between the present and the future, and it is in the spirit of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Are you confident, though, that the direction of travel has enough flexibility built into it to provide room for innovation and self-determination for farmers? I know that previous and current schemes have been described as too prescriptive by the sector, and I hope that lessons have been learned there.
Finally, I'd like to pay tribute to everyone working in agriculture. As key workers, they've kept the country fed in exceptionally difficult circumstances. Many consumers have seen the benefit of packs of meat, fruit and vegetables from their local suppliers. I suspect, and I really hope, that these practices and services will stay once lockdown is over. I wish you well with your next steps, and I wish this sector here in Wales, with their excellent produce, innovations and services, the very brightest of futures. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, Mandy Jones, for those comments and questions. I absolutely agree—everybody in the food supply chain have been key workers in ensuring, as I said earlier, that we didn't go without food.
One of the things that we saw at the beginning of the pandemic, unfortunately, on one occasion, was milk being poured away, and I absolutely agree with you about how heartbreaking that was for the farmers, and it's the reason why we've brought forward the dairy sector scheme.
Whilst you and I will never agree on EU transition, one thing I do agree is that active farmers have not been rewarded enough, and this scheme will reward active farmers. That was very important as we bring the scheme forward: that it is not the landowners but the farmers, the people who do all of the work, who will get rewarded. I also have said all along that, if we have more bureaucracy, then we will have failed. We need to make sure that things are much more simple.
The short answer is that Liz Truss had no conversations with me before she announced that, but I wouldn't expect that. We tried to get her to come to many of our Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs quadrilaterals when she was in the Treasury and failed miserably, apart from one phone call, so that doesn't surprise me. However, I will be having conversations with George Eustice, the Secretary of State for DEFRA. As you know, we meet regularly—we met last week—and that's a conversation that will be going forward as we discuss frameworks as well.
I want to assure everybody that we will not go to the new scheme without a significant transition period. We will not transpose to that scheme until everything is in place. As I said, I think it would be very surprising if it were before 2024.
Obviously, the future generations Act and the environment Act have guided us, and will continue to guide us. I do think there is enough flexibility. I want to see innovation in our agricultural sector—it's something that we've encouraged and I think has been grasped by many parts of the sector.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I appreciate it must be very frustrating not to know how much money Wales is going to get from whatever is going to replace the common agricultural policy, but I do feel that, whether it's going to be £5 million or £105 billion or million, we need to have set the parameters in which we're going to operate. I feel that we're just going to be done to, depending on what the UK Government comes up with—with their 'no deal' Brexit, possibly, with their trade deal with the United States and the chlorination of our food programme.
So, I just feel that we are in danger of just being passive recipients of whatever the UK Government dishes up for us, rather than actively deciding what we think is important about the way we use our land and the way in which we reward for outcomes rather than simply entitlement, simply because somebody is a landowner. So, it seems to me that we need to be moving at a much faster pace than you are setting out in your statement. It depresses me to think that we're not even going to get an analysis of the move from an entitlement-based to a voluntary scheme until the summer after next year's elections.
As you say, it's been, globally, a very challenging time, but we've got so many things that are happening all around us, and, unless we actively decide what we want to do, in line with the environment Act and the future generations Act, we're simply just going to be swept away.
So, I wanted to ask you about two specific developments that have already happened recently. One is that—I don't know whether Andrew R.T. Davies and Llyr Gruffydd are aware of this, but the UK has issued guidance about the marketing of agriculture and vegetable seed varieties that will require applicants for adding any variety that is not already on the list to have to pay £300 per variety to get onto the permitted list in order to sell them. This is god's gift to Monsanto and the McDonald's-isation of food, rather than sharing the most appropriate varieties for growing in Welsh soil. So, I'd be keen to know whether you've had the opportunity to analyse just what impact that's going to have.
And the second point is that Dr Tom Jefferson from Oxford University's Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine in the last couple of days has identified the presence of coronavirus around the world in the sewerage systems in Spain, Italy and Brazil long before the outbreak in Wuhan, and he says that it struck because it found favourable conditions in food-intensive environments like food factories and meat packing plants, to which I suggest we should add intensive chicken and pig farms and mega dairies.

Can you come to a conclusion, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: So, I wondered what assessment the Welsh Government plans to make of the link between COVID and its incubation in intensive food environments.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Okay, thank you, Jenny Rathbone. We are actively pursuing our own agricultural scheme and policy. I've always said it will be bespoke for Wales and we are continuing to do that in light of all the difficulties that you've outlined.
In relation to the reference about the £300 per variety to add sellers to the permitted list, the £300 fee charge is part of the normal application process for UK listing and that ensures the full recovery of costs incurred in providing these services. And the cost for registering heritage varieties or varieties that are intended mainly for gardeners—I think they're known as 'amateur veg'—that's lower, and it's about £100 per variety application. But we are continuing to work to support the industry, and an example of this is our recently launched simplified process for copying EU common catalogue plant varieties onto the UK national list to ensure that we have that continued and seamless marketing in the UK following the EU transition period coming to an end.
With regard to your question around Dr Tom Jefferson, who, as you say, has identified the presence of the virus around the world ahead of the outbreak in Wuhan, you'll be aware of the two outbreaks that we've had in north Wales and the incident in Merthyr, and I'd just like to thank Public Health Wales, the HSE and local authorities for their response to these cases. Colleagues will be aware there's been a number of newly identified cases and that that's now a small number, and that's because we've got the test, trace and protect system now working.
I want to emphasise that the food industry has well-established practices to minimise cross-contamination within its production lines and amongst its staff, and this was recognised by both the public health authorities and by HSE during their investigations. Again, I'd like to emphasise, the Food Standards Agency said there's no risk of transmission via food, but of course we're continually looking at this and we will always consider proven evidence when we're developing our policy.

Finally, Neil McEvoy.

Neil McEvoy AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, thanks for the statement. The publication Nation.Cymru reported today that the Financial Times are reporting that the UK Government will force Wales to accept inferior agricultural products, such as chlorinated chicken, for example, and it said that the Welsh Government's senior official had said that we will be expected to fall in line.
Do you not think it's time that the Welsh Government drew a line in the sand with the UK Government and strongly stood up for food producers in Wales? Because the legislation already exists. We have public health legislation and we should invoke that to stop the import of chlorinated chicken and other inferior products. So, I simply do not see why the health of the population of the people of Wales should be damaged by products such as that. Therefore, we have the powers in place already, the question to you really is: are you prepared to use them and are you prepared to support the agricultural community in that way?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The short answer is 'yes'. I'm absolutely determined to support the agricultural community, and we've made it very clear to the UK Government that we will not accept a lowering of standards of animal health or welfare. You'll be aware that Eluned Morgan is the Minister with responsibility for trade negotiations on behalf of Welsh Government and she, too, has made clear, in relation to the trade negotiations being undertaken now by the UK Government as we approach the EU transition, that we will not accept that. I've also made it very clear to DEFRA that they're not acceptable. They're not acceptable to the EU now, so I don't see why they should be acceptable following transition.

Thank you very much, Minister.

8. Debate on the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee Report: The impact of COVID-19 on Sport

Item 8 on the agenda is a debate on the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee's report on the impact of COVID-19 on sport. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Helen Mary Jones.

Motion NDM7344 Helen Mary Jones
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee on the impact of the Covid-19 outbreak on sport laid in the Table Office on30 June 2020.

Motion moved.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased to be able to present this report from our committee to the Assembly today, and in doing so, I want to begin by thanking the witnesses who've given us evidence and of course the committee staff who serve our committee exceptionally well.
Sport, as I'm sure we all agree, is a vital part of our life in our nation, from international level to elite professional sport to community sport and to physical activity that doesn't really fall into the sporting category. I know that it's very close to the hearts of many of us in this Chamber. Laura Anne Jones reminded us again earlier in our deliberations today of how very passionate, for example, Mohammad Asghar was about his cricket.
The immediate impact of the crisis on sport has been devastating—'catastrophic' was the word that witnesses used. Immediately, a total shutdown. And the £8.5 million made available straight away—repurposed funds—by Sport Wales was indeed very welcome. It has made a huge difference—this is what we were told—but there is, of course, now the issue for longer term support.
We heard during our evidence sessions that not all of those working in the sector had been able to be supported, either by UK Government or by Welsh Government schemes, and the examples given were individuals like self-employed instructors and coaches. That's why we've recommended that Welsh Government should intervene to ensure that all of those working in the sector are eligible for an element of financial support. It is crucial that we retain that human infrastructure. I have been hearing over recent days that the Government's original proposed hardship bursary, which was targeting particularly self-employed people who hadn't yet been helped, may be in doubt. And today, I would like to urge the Deputy Minister to have some further discussion with colleagues to ensure that, if that scheme does not go ahead, there are alternatives for those people working in the sporting sector.
Members will be aware, of course, that, in response partly to austerity, some of our local authorities have created leisure trusts to run their sporting and leisure facilities. We heard during our evidence sessions that these trusts now face particular difficulties. They have, of course, no income and this will only get worse once the furlough scheme starts to taper off. That's why we've recommended that Welsh Government should work with local authorities to consider the support that might be needed to be made available to leisure trusts and to be prepared to extend some necessary public support. It is, of course, true that those leisure facilities that remain in local government hands can have a certain amount of cross-subsidy from other parts of the local authority; the independent trusts, of course, cannot. We can't afford to lose these vital community facilities.
We heard that there had been equality impacts in participation in sport and in the way that sporting clubs and organisations were affected by the crisis. We heard, for example, that women's football has been disproportionately impacted when compared to the men's game. We also heard that, whilst some people have engaged in more physical activity during the lockdown, others have been doing less. People from higher socioeconomic backgrounds tending to do more than they would've done before the crisis and those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, in fact, many of them doing less. This is why we have recommended that the Welsh Government's recovery plan and financial support for the sector should tackle the widening gap in physical inactivity between groups, and that Sport Wales's financial support should be focused on those organisations facing the biggest challenges as we go forward.
But there are also opportunities. The very fact that all the Governments in these islands prioritised exercise by permitting an hour a day out of the house all the way through the lockdown and at the height of the crisis sends a very clear message about the importance of physical activity. Now we must build on this, which is why we have recommended that Welsh Government lead conversations with representatives from the health and the sports and physical activity sectors to set a long-term, joined-up policy direction for physical activity and public health. And it is vital that this long-term policy direction tackles those inequalities to which I have earlier referred.
We have seen the beginning of the return to elite sport behind closed doors, and that has been, of course, very welcome. And, clearly, it is not time yet for the return of crowds, and we received no evidence from the sector suggesting that they wish to push the process faster than was safe for their audiences. However, witnesses did tell us that the sector needs time to prepare for the point when they will be able to welcome their audiences back and that they need more clarity. So, for example, the Football Association of Wales told us that they need a clearer definition from Welsh Government about what constitutes a large crowd, and they made the point that a large crowd in one size of a stadium would be a very small crowd in another. So, for these reasons, we have recommended that Welsh Government should issue guidance on mass gatherings for sporting events, developing this in collaboration with the sport governing bodies and facility providers, and that they should develop this guidance as soon as possible to enable sporting venues to prepare for when audiences may be able to return.
Dirprwy Lywydd, sport and physical activity are central to our health and well-being as individuals, as communities and as a nation. The sector at this time—and I know the Deputy Minister is well aware of this—is very vulnerable in a number of ways. Leadership is vital if this important sector is to be protected. I commend our report to the Senedd, and I look forward to Members' contributions to this debate.

Mick Antoniw AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, that was a very, very comprehensive and full report on what, I think, is an excellent short report that has been to the point, that has provided a considerable amount of very important data on the impact on sport. And the important point out of it, really, to me, is this: firstly, it's going to be the grass roots that are going to be really heavily affected in our communities, and that is where we need to have some focus.
Many clubs are now preparing to return. I'm very pleased that some of our councils have had foresight to try and do work to prepare for that. For example, Rhondda Cynon Taf in my own area have been cutting the fields because of the risk of actually losing those fields for a year or two from the fact that they are not regularly cut. So, at least some preparations have been taking place.
For me, what we've been able to start identifying, I think, is a new way of looking at sport. Because the interaction between sport, health, morale, community, well-being, the linking between education and health, it seems to me, are very, very important. And how we go forward, I think looking at sport and the role it plays in a different way, I think, is going to be extremely important, and that point, of course, came out in the evidence that we had.
I'm also particularly concerned about some of the lesser-known sports that quite often have quite a degree of support: for example, basketball, Team Wales basketball, who've performed very, very well, and Team Wales ParaCheer, who performed in this Assembly not so long ago. Now, they don't fall within the normal identification of sports, but they are sports—a combination of sport and dance. And, of course, there are other sports around. I would actually describe some of the dance schools as sports.
In my constituency, we have Dance Crazy Studios that has 600 pupils, that's produced UK champions amongst young people. It is an absolutely incredible and fantastic performing body. But, of course, they are still within the same position as, for example, gymnasiums and others are, unable to perform, even though there are so many young people, children, who, during this summer, I think, would relish the opportunity now to be able to engage in activity. And I know, for example, with Dance Crazy, they say, 'Look, we'll do it outside; we will socially distance; we will do everything that is necessary.' And I think we have to actually look at some of these in our communities in terms of the specific contribution they will make to young people's well-being and welfare over the coming few weeks.
There is the challenge now of our leisure centres, which we know do have real challenges, and the impact on local authorities in terms of the lost income, but also in terms of the fitness, because many of our leisure centres are predominantly based in our working-class communities. The proportion of people who use them rather than private gymnasiums, and so on, are very much from our working-class communities. So, actually, support for councils who have lost that income, and even when these leisure centres start running again, they will be on reduced numbers.
And the final point I make relates to recommendation 3, which is with regard to the point that Helen Mary Jones made so well, which is to do with the issue of inequality. It is the working-class communities that are going to be hardest hit; the most deprived communities are going to be hardest hit culturally, in terms of activity, in terms of health and in terms of access. It seems to me what would be a very attractive option would be if Welsh Government did a very specific equality assessment in terms of sport and the impact on our communities for when it comes to actually prioritising those very resources that we have available to us. Thank you.

David Melding AC: Can I commend this report? I think it's a really good piece of work and brings six very coherent and connected recommendations, and we're debating this the day that test cricket starts again. I'm not sure if any play has been possible today in Southampton, as July continues to pretend it's October, but to see the West Indies again—and many commentators think it's the best side they've fielded since the 1980s—lifts the heart. Many people that no longer, like me, are playing cricket, have retained a great desire to watch it. So, I think, for public morale, elite sport is very, very important.
We see our two championship teams, Swansea and Cardiff, with a chance of the play-offs, particularly Cardiff, and I do extend my best wishes. A bit disappointing, the result last night, but still, they've made a really good return to form in the last few games and have picked up very valuable points. So, I'm still very hopeful.
I do commend the broadcasters as well for putting so much of premier and championship football on free-to-view on television. I am a keen watcher of the football. It's a strange, vacant, echoey experience at the moment to watch these games behind closed doors, but it's a lot better than nothing.
When it comes to rugby at the elite level, I am profoundly worried that it is in much more difficulty than even football is, and footballing, we have to say, is at elite level, quite distinguished between premier and championship and then the lower leagues, which do not have television income and are in much more difficulty. But I think professional rugby in Wales is facing a crisis. This will have a big impact on our national team as well, if we're not careful, but certainly regional rugby, and on our ability to attract big events and, really, what we feel as a nation. So, these things have to be very, very carefully looked at, and I do hope the Welsh Government can work with the professional authorities to ensure that as much of our rugby culture survives as is possible.
But, quite rightly, our main focus was on community sports' scope for the people, and I do think the way we've connected things like the need for physical activity, the need to connect sport and public health is very, very key, in my view. As we just heard from Mick Antoniw, we do need to concentrate our resources in the poorest communities, which often have the least amount of open space and good sporting facilities. So, I know councils looking at this to ensure that they get the maximum support possible as things open up again.
I think recommendation 2 is very important—the way we work with local authorities to support community sport and clubs. Again, there should be some bias, I think, to those in most need in the more marginal communities, because the work there that goes on and encourages people of all ages—. There's a sport for everyone to play; that's the wonder of it. But also, for our children and young people, having sporting opportunities is so important, and it's not all based at school; it needs to be based in the community as well.
So, I'm delighted to commend this report, and we're very grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer, that time has been given to discussing this report, as it was recently to our report on the arts sector. These are very, very important areas, but not always do they receive the attention, perhaps, they need for the health of national life. So, again, I commend your report. I thank the Chair for her leadership, and also our secretariat, who enabled us to carry out this excellent piece of work.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I start by thanking the committee for producing this report? It's a timely opportunity to look at the impacts of the coronavirus pandemic on sport, and also scrutinise the Welsh Government's response. On that note, I was heartened to read that sporting bodies across Wales were positive about the way the Welsh Government has handled and helped them though this crisis, and, of course, that money has been made available to support sport and physical activity organisations, which, of course, have been negatively impacted by the crisis. In this contribution today I would ask the Minister to continue to support these organisations, including the wonderful resource that is the grass-roots sports clubs and physical activity groups we have here. When doing this, Minister, I look to you to have in mind the joy that sport can bring to those who participate, but also those who spectate, and I know this only too well. Deputy Llywydd, I must say I've been waiting for this opportunity, to stand in the Welsh Parliament—because it's right that we stand in the Welsh Parliament—and say this: during lockdown, my beloved Connah's Quay Nomads won the Cymru Premier league title, and they've had a fantastic season, so I speak on behalf of this Senedd and the Alyn and Deeside constituency when I say how incredibly proud we are that the trophy is coming back to Wales. A great year for the Nomads—they played some amazing football, and it's lovely to see that six of our championship-winning squad are in the team of the season. I know that many of our Members here and Members across Wales, will be delighted that Champions League football will be in the Quay next year.
So, Minister, please take away the important messages from the report. Real thanks to the members of the committee again for this. Please protect grass-roots clubs in Wales of all types of sport, like Mick Antoniw mentioned in his contribution, and please remember the joy that sport can bring.

John Griffiths AC: I think the strong themes in the report that have been echoed in the Chamber today are very important and very timely, and very useful at the current time, and I very much hope that we see speedy action on the points and recommendations.
In my own experience, Dirprwy Lywydd, in Newport we have Newport Live, which is an arm's-length trust set up by the local authority. As we heard earlier, there are, of course, different models—some in the private sector, some local authority retained and others at arm's length—but all of them are doing a really important job in delivering the leisure opportunities that mean so much to people, and linking very much with health and tackling deprivation. Newport Live, for example, has some really good facilities, such as the Geraint Thomas velodrome, the 25m swimming pool, Newport Centre, which is a leisure centre, but also for entertainment as well as having a gym and a family swimming pool, and there are other facilities such as the tennis centre. So, all of those are really, really important to people keeping active and healthy and having those sporting opportunities, and it's elite level, but very much grass-roots as well. In fact, the Geraint Thomas velodrome at the moment is being used for COVID-19 rehabilitation, which I think is really impressive to see—the organisation reaching out and working with the health centre in that way at a time of crisis such as the one we currently face. They do an awful lot in terms of alternative curriculum education, dealing with deprivation factors by taking sport and activity out to the most deprived communities. All of that work, I think, that breadth and depth of work, Dirprwy Lywydd, really does reinforce the opportunity to build new partnerships between the leisure, sport, physical activity and health sectors. I'm glad that's highlighted in the report and it's good to hear other Members reinforcing that as well. That's well overdue and really should be a strong part not just of the longer term, but what we do short term as well.
Newport County, of course—I congratulate Jack on the success of the Connah's Quay Nomads—but Newport County, I know, is also dear to Jack's heart, and one of the reasons for that is the very good work that the club has done on mental health issues, and Jack has been involved and Jayne Bryant's been involved. We've all been supporting that. It's an example, again, of the football club understanding its importance to Newport in terms of people's sense of identity and belonging, and the wider work that they can do using the power, the status and the role that they have. It has been really powerful in terms of their mental health campaign, and it has reached many people and it's something they wish to strengthen and develop further.
It is true to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that clubs like Newport County are very much dependent on the gate money that comes through when they have their home games, and they're not in the privileged position of some other clubs higher up the football pyramid, where there's an awful lot of money washing around and a lot of wealth concentrated amongst the ownership. We really do need, I think, a rethink towards a much more sustainable model of football that's much more about the grass roots and clubs at the lower levels of the football pyramid, and all of that money in the premiership needs to filter down to much greater effect than is currently the case. This is now an opportunity—the issues around COVID-19 and the football world—to look at all of that and get to a much more sustainable model, and one that would have much greater public support. I'm sure all of us are very familiar with people taking a very cynical and, I would say, realistic view of football at the top level and the amount of money around and the way that that money is used and how it could be much better used for the grass roots and clubs lower down the pyramid. Again, I hope that's something that comes out of this current crisis and is strengthened by the work of our committee and the report.
Just one final matter, Dirprwy Lywydd, and that's around activities. We think very much of schools at the moment, in terms of returning to as much normality as possible, and that's really, really important. Another aspect of that are all of the activities that children do, the classes they go to, the coaching that they have, whether it's cricket, football, tennis, athletics, dance, gymnastics. That's a really, really important part of children's development and enjoyment of life. It's something they did enjoy, it's something they miss, and it's something they and their families want to get back to as quickly as possible.

Alun Davies AC: I understand that I sometimes give the impression that I'm more of a spectator of sport than a participant, and recent months have taught me the dangers of participation in some activities, I have to say. But I would like this afternoon, if I could, in a few short moments, to make a plea to look again at how we do reopen the facilities that enable physical activities and sport within our communities.
I enjoyed reading the committee's report. I felt that there was a very good balance in the report between its focus on the major organised sports—and I agree very much with the analysis provided to the committee by representatives of these sports—and the impact also of COVID on the wider issues of fitness, health and well-being in our society, issues that John Griffiths has just been describing in Newport. And he could have made that speech as well about Blaenau Gwent and about many other communities up and down this country. There are a number of areas where sport is important for our overall health and mental well-being.
It was about a year ago to now that I was in Cwm Primary School in my constituency participating in the daily mile and the physical activity the children were doing in that school. The headteacher was very, very clear that the outcomes of that physical activity aren't just in the health and well-being of the pupils in the school but in their educational outcomes as well. And as we've been through these last few months, I am very, very aware that these children and young people, particularly in this case, are losing out on those opportunities.
But we also know—and I thought the report was very, very clear on this—that over the last three months, we've seen differential levels of physical activity within our communities; that wealthier communities, wealthier families, wealthier people appear to be able to increase physical activity and be able to do more in terms of health and well-being, whereas we've seen poorer people, people coming from poorer backgrounds and in poorer communities, doing less physical activity and having the opportunity to practice sport and well-being to a far lesser extent.
What that does, of course, is to increase and to widen the inequalities we already see in our communities in terms of wider health and well-being, and there's a very real danger that this impact of COVID will have the clear and obvious impact that the virus has immediately on our communities, but it will also leave a legacy of inequality in our communities, and I hope that the Government are able to address some of these issues. I want to see how the Government is designing a plan to open up the facilities that will underpin the health and well-being of different communities, understand how swimming pools can be reopened, understand how leisure centres can be reopened again, gyms and fitness studios.
We're already talking about how outdoor sports have been able to restart over the last few weeks, but also indoor sports as well. I'm patron of the wheelchair sports club in Ebbw Vale, and I've seen how the wheelchair sports club there have been able to develop not only the club in terms of their activities, but also address fundamental and important issues of health and well-being for its members. And when we are talking about sports, I think we also need to take that more holistic view of what sport actually is. It isn't just watching some of the national and international sporting fixtures, but it's also what happens on a Saturday afternoon, a Saturday morning and a Tuesday night in our communities up and down the country.
I would be in terrible trouble at home if I wasn't also going to use this opportunity to say that my nine-year-old son is desperate to get out and play football again, and I'm sure there are families with nine-year-old sons right up and down this country who want to get out and play football or rugby, or whatever it happens to be. So, we do need to look at how we're able to do this.
Let me finish on this point, Deputy Presiding Officer; I know I'm testing your patience. This is another report indicating a lack of effective engagement from the United Kingdom Government with the Welsh Government. This has been a constant throughout the last few months, and I hope, Deputy Presiding Officer, in accepting the report this afternoon, that this Welsh Parliament will also note that we need to address this fundamental issue of engagement from the United Kingdom Government.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I hope you'll forgive me for standing up and contributing to this debate. Obviously, this is my first day, but I was Conservative spokesperson for sport in 2003 so I felt the need to stand up and say something. I wanted, first of all, to commend the report myself; I thought it was a very—. What Helen Mary Jones said; I want to thank her for that and thank the committee. I thought they were very sensible recommendations and very necessary recommendations.
I think sport and physical activity have played a vital role over the last three months during lockdown in terms of well-being. I know from my own children, it has saved our lives in a lot of ways. There's a gentleman called Joe Wicks—I'm not sure if you're aware of him—that did PE with Joe at home. But again, for those families that don't have iPads at home or any form of computer, they were missing out on that. It was great for those that could afford those facilities to enable them to use that, and that is something that we should look at, going forward—that schools should maybe take that role rather than having to rely on a celebrity like him. But I thought that was fantastic, what he achieved.
Also, I've been enjoying tennis along with my son, because that's come back in terms of one-to-one tuition now, which is great—it's great to actually do any sort of sport as a sport nut myself, and my child, obviously. But we're looking forward to that progressing to enable more children to play together in matches, and so forth.
I also want to just make the point, which hasn't been raised yet—you've all made very good points; Mick Antoniw, John Griffiths, et cetera—that we need to look at the vulnerable children, as I've just outlined. They are the ones that we need to target, particularly when it comes to sport, and we need it to reach them, because the benefits just are so huge, in terms of health and well-being and so on. But we need to realise that, as things open now, probably in the winter, there is going to be 'rain stops play' sorts of things in certain areas. For example, in Newport, you've got a mass of 3G, 4G pitches to play on, so it ensures that children have that continuity and are able to play sport.
I want us to remember that, in rural areas, even though Monmouth is seen as a largely affluent area, it is not—we have severe pockets of deprivation. But in terms of sport provision and facilities in rural areas, we are very poor, and, literally, we can't play grass-roots football or rugby or anything. And I'm thinking of my children's sports here; it is vital that our children get to play sport, and they can't if those facilities aren't there. So, I'm hoping that this committee will persuade the Government to look at rural areas, and ensure that we have the same facilities and the same opportunities as those in cities and our bigger towns. Thank you.

Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Dafydd Elis-Thomas? Sorry, we can't hear you. Could you try again? Sorry, Deputy Minister, we're not hearing you at the moment. I wonder if somebody can just—or whether it's the sound barrel on your headset.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Is that better? That's it—is that better?

That is it. We can hear you now. No, we can't hear you now. It was whatever you did before, probably with the sound barrel on the headset. That's probably the answer to that. Shall we have a couple of minutes' technical break? We'll have a couple of minutes' technical break, and then somebody perhaps can see whether they can get the Deputy Minister to respond. So we'll have a couple of minutes' break. So hopefully the technicians get on it, and hopefully we'll be back in shortly.

Plenary was suspended at 17:23.
The Senedd reconvened at 17:24, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

That's okay now, Deputy Minister.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: May I thank everyone who has contributed to this debate and thank you for the opportunity to have such a debate on sport and the impact of this public health crisis on sport, which is similar to the debate that we had on the arts? I think it’s wonderful that the Assembly can contribute in this way in setting the agenda for Government as we respond to the crisis that we’re currently facing.
Helen Mary Jones, thank you for emphasising the contribution that we’ve made through Sport Wales. Sport Wales is the body that implements sports policy here in Wales and the £8.5 million will certainly ensure that there is greater participation in sport within the nation in general. We have been seeking, over the past three years, to develop a policy of using health funding in partnership with sport, and I can assure you that that will continue.
Thank you to Mick Antoniw for emphasising the importance of the less prominent sports, such as basketball, and the Dance Crazy company, who I saw perform in the Senedd, and for emphasising the need to avoid inequalities in the use of leisure centres. That is certainly an issue that I will want to discuss with local government and with those responsible within Sport Wales.
Thank you to David Melding for mentioning cricket and for emphasising the way in which sport maintains public morale, and the need to have appropriate provision on a regional level and across Wales. I’m pleased to say that we have been in discussions recently with the Welsh Rugby Union. We are aware of their current funding crisis and we are seeking ways of helping to resolve that.
I’d like to thank Jack Sargeant for emphasising football in north Wales. I have been watching Connah’s Quay Nomads and I think that they’ve done superbly. Bala, unfortunately, haven’t reached the same levels. But we’re very aware of the need to strengthen the role of community football and we will be doing that in collaboration with and through the funding that we provide to the FAW.
I’d like to thank John Griffiths for highlighting, once again, the huge diversity of sports available in Newport. We’ve had an opportunity over the past two and a half years to visit Newport on a number of occasions and to support the development of the velodrome, the swimming pool and other activities in that area. Therefore, the partnership and the inspiration provided to the city of Newport by Newport County as a football team is a model that we can hopefully adopt across Wales.
And then, Alun Davies, thank you for emphasising the connection, once again, between physical fitness and mental health. This is an important lesson for us during this crisis because as we start to understand the importance of sport, we can see how a whole community can emerge from a crisis. I do think that the inspiration that sport can provide in a situation such as this one is something that we can be particularly proud of.
May I also thank Laura Anne Jones? It’s wonderful to see her back, in very sad circumstances of course. But I thank her for her comments on the importance of ensuring that different sports, such as tennis, and 3G facilities, are available in rural areas, not just in urban areas, and perhaps we can have a particular conversation on that point in order to ensure that we can take this forward.
In conclusion, may I emphasise that I have responsibility not only for sports and the arts, as was discussed last week, but I also have a more general responsibility to take an overview of physical activity? And I think that the commitment I would like to give, for the rest of my term, as Minister for sport, is that I will give particular emphasis to that overview, so that we can celebrate physical activity more generally, as one of our national virtues. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call on Helen Mary Jones to reply to the debate?

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. And I'm very grateful to all Members who've participated in the debate. It's impossible, of course, to respond to what everybody has said, and I think there were many common themes that I will come to, in a moment, but I must mention one or two individual Members. I cannot not congratulate the Connah's Quay Nomads or Jack Sargeant would never forgive me. It's a great achievement, and I'm sure we all want to share the congratulations that Jack Sargeant brought to the Senedd this afternoon. And I must personally welcome Laura Anne Jones back to our Senedd, albeit under very tragic circumstances. Laura and I, of course, served together in the past, and, I must say, it's very pleasing to see another woman in the Chamber. So, croeso nôl.
I think what struck me, Dirprwy Lywydd, was the common themes that came out of the contributions of all Members: the way that sport can inspire us, the way that it can lift our spirits in hard times—David Melding talked about being pleased to see the cricket back—but also the common theme about inequality and about how important it is to ensure that people in our poorest communities have access to physical activity opportunities. And I was very pleased to hear what the Minister said, right at the end of his contribution, about the commitment to promoting all physical activity, not just what we traditionally think of as sport.
In John Griffiths's contribution, I was very much struck by his in-depth knowledge of the sporting world in his own community and constituency. And I think that's shared commonly across the Chamber. It certainly came across in Alun Davies's contribution. Members have also referred to the really huge importance of physical activity for children. I'm sure there are a lot of—to go back to Alun Davies's contribution—nine-year-old girls and boys who are desperate to get out and to be able to play together again, as soon as it's safe to do so.
Mick Antoniw's contribution, where he again highlighted the importance of public facilities to enable poorer people to continue to participate or to begin to participate in physical activities, people who cannot afford, for example a private gym membership—. And I very much hope, when the Deputy Minister formally responds to our report, that he picks up on that issue of the leisure trusts and those facilities that are no longer in full local authority hands and therefore have more potential to face even bigger challenges than the leisure centres that are owned still by the local authorities.
I am grateful to everyone, as I've said, Dirprwy Lywydd, for their contributions. I want to mention Mick Antoniw's suggestion of an equality impact assessment. It's not a formal recommendation from the committee, but it's certainly come out of everybody's contributions today, and came up in the discussions that we had as a committee. We know that we cannot—.There'll never be enough money to do everything for everybody. And I think there's a clear message to the Government, from our committee and from this Chamber, that, when priorities are determined, we must support people who have the least opportunities. We didn't, for example, get any formal evidence, under this session, about the participation of black people and people of colour in sport at community level. But we know, from previous work, that they can have more of a challenge in gaining access.
So, I would suggest to the Minister that, as he looks to prioritise, going forward, he really does undertake an equality impact assessment of the support that's already been provided. He is right to say, of course, that the support that's already been provided through Sport Wales was very warmly welcomed by the sector when they gave us evidence. But they were equally clear—and I know that the Minister and the Deputy Minister know this—that that support, though it was very welcome, will not be sufficient in itself to take us through.
So, I will end, Dirprwy Lywydd, by thanking all participants in this debate and everybody, once again, who participated in the committee's process, the written and the oral evidence and, of course, as others, including David Melding, have mentioned, our exceptional staff, as a committee, for whom we are very grateful. We look forward to the Government's formal response to our report, which we know will come in due course. And I'm grateful to the Minister for responding informally in this debate at this time.
With that, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to commend this report to the Senedd and look forward to scrutinising the Government further, as their support for the sport and, very importantly, physical activity sector continues at this very difficult time.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, I don't see an objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Petitions Committee Debate: Petition  P-05-967 'Welsh Government to amend its NDR relief policy to help keep Debenhams stores open in Wales'

Item 9 on our agenda this afternoon is the debate on the Petitions Committee's petition P-05-967, 'Welsh Government to amend its NDR relief policy to help keep Debenhams stores open in Wales', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Janet Finch-Saunders.

Motion NDM7343 Janet Finch-Saunders
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the petition 'P-05-967 Welsh Government to amend its NDR relief policy to help keep Debenhams stores open in Wales'which received 5,790 signatures.

Motion moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and also for the opportunity to introduce this debate. The petition in front of us collected 5,790 signatures. It was submitted by Peter Black, a former colleague of many of us here in the Senedd, and a current elected councillor on Swansea Council.
This petition raises concerns about the impact that the closure of large retail stores can have on the viability of town and city centres. It does so in the context of the challenges facing the retail sector as a result of the coronavirus. The petition references Debenhams stores in keeping with the central role that store plays in Swansea city centre. We have the same here in Llandudno—it is very much an anchor store for many within our premier shopping centre. However, the wider point made by the petitioners is the importance of such large anchor stores in many town and city centres across Wales. The knock-on effect that the loss of such a store, and the resulting drop in footfall, can be devastating to other businesses in the area.
Now, I want to stress that, in bringing this petition forward, the Petitions Committee is not seeking to prompt a detailed debate of the merits of offering financial support to one specific company, or about the financial position of Debenhams itself. Instead, I believe that a discussion of this petition can help to shine a light on two significant issues: (1) how the financial support available to businesses from the Welsh Government can best be prioritised to those who need it the most; and (2) what measures can be taken to protect our high streets from the effects of this awful pandemic. Nevertheless, it is necessary to briefly set out some background to the petition.
In March the Minister for Finance announced a package of support for businesses in response to COVID-19. This included 100 per cent business rates relief for properties used for retail, leisure and hospitality, for one year only. Subsequently, the scheme was amended to exclude properties with a rateable value of £500,000 and over. The Welsh Government states that this affects fewer than 200 properties in Wales and has enabled more than £100 million to be redirected into its economic resilience fund. Companies, including Debenhams, have alleged that this decision may put the reopening of some large stores in Wales in jeopardy. In the case of Debenhams stores in Swansea and Newport, both of which have been highlighted to the committee, deferrals of business rates have been agreed locally. The petitioner has pointed out the number of jobs generated by large retail premises, both in terms of direct employment and indirectly to the local economy. He also points out that the local agreements reached only relate to deferrals, with the money still being due in future.
Clearly, many retailers have been able to reopen their doors since restrictions on non-essential retail were relaxed from 22 June. This, one would hope, should help to alleviate the challenges faced by many retailers across Wales. However, there are still clearly some very hard times ahead, and it is no exaggeration to say that there are existential challenges facing many businesses, large and small. Many of these challenges are structural and predate the current crisis, but they have certainly been exacerbated by the shutdown required to tackle this disease. I hope that this debate helps us to further the discussion about how the Welsh Government can best respond to those challenges. I also look forward to hearing from the Minister today about the actions being taken to support retailers and other businesses in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Jack Sargeant AC: I welcome this opportunity to speak on this petition. Sitting on the Petitions Committee is a real privilege for me because it gives me a great opportunity to look at items of huge importance, like this one. This petition is asking the Government to act to help secure the future of an important employer here in Wales and we should all be very conscious of the need for government to show flexibility in defending jobs in retail, where our high streets have really been affected by the coronavirus pandemic. Of course, there are other sectors as well. Many sectors across Wales have been affected, and I myself have called on the UK Government to act quickly to support the aerospace industry. I can only hope that they start to take these calls seriously.
I noted, Deputy Llywydd, the Minister's response to the committee with real interest and in particular that the Welsh Government is providing non-domestic rates relief to the majority of Debenhams stores in Wales, with a total support of over £1 million. However, we do have to recognise this company is a significant employer across Wales and I would urge the Minister to further outline how she can work with our partners in local government to further support these jobs and how she can also look further to how we're supporting all jobs across our high streets and all businesses on our high streets throughout this crisis and into the post-COVID world. Thank you.

Nick Ramsay AC: I'm pleased to say a few words in this debate and thank Janet Finch-Saunders and indeed the Petitions Committee for having considered an important petition. I first raised the issue of Debenhams a number of weeks ago now when the threat to the Welsh stores in Newport and Swansea, I think it was, were first mentioned and first emerged in my local press. I think it's very easy for us to focus on the need to support small businesses and medium-sized enterprises during the pandemic, and, of course, that is vitally important, and in my own constituency in my area of south Wales you've got market towns, you've got small shops that do need support, but at the same time, I think if we take our eye off the ball and we don't look at ways that we can support the larger anchor stores as well, then we're going to be missing something. And as Janet Finch-Saunders said in opening, the way that the business rate regime is working in Wales—the non-domestic rate regime—that does mean that stores like Debenhams have felt threatened. I think it would be too easy to think, 'Well, okay, they're larger companies, they'll be all right.' At the end of the day, if we lose a store such as the flagship store in Newport, which has only been open for a few years now, relatively speaking, we lose a lot of jobs, we lose a major anchor store in that area that brings people in who are then going to shop in surrounding shops and support the local economy. And although it's in the neighbouring constituency—it's in Newport West, in Jayne Bryant's area—of course, many people in my area go down to that store and many people work there.
So, thank you for taking this petition on, Janet, and can I thank the members of the Petitions Committee for doing that and bringing this debate here today? Let's urge the Welsh Government to look again at the non-domestic rates relief scheme. Yes, the Welsh Government has done a number of things to try and support businesses and particularly smaller businesses, but let's not lose sight of the fact that the large stores like Debenhams need the support.
I'd also like to hear from the Minister, when the Minister does respond, as to an update on the discussions that have been held with the management of Debenhams, because I think, from what I know from what they've said, they've had some very good ideas, which hopefully we can come to an accommodation on where all sides will be satisfied. But thank you for this debate today.

David J Rowlands AC: Whilst we support the motion, it is disappointing to note that it could not include other iconic high-street retailers. I of course appreciate that the committee has to present the debate in the light of the original petition. I would like, however, to take this opportunity to emphasise that other major stores have closed or are about to close many of their high-street facilities. We in Torfaen have seen the closure of the Marks and Spencer store in Cwmbran town centre, and one wonders what is the financial situation of such businesses as the David Evans department store in the town, which is one of the House of Fraser chain of stores. These famous chains are often anchor stores for town centres; their absence often causes—if you'll forgive the pun—a chain reaction for the centres affected, where many small outlets cannot survive because of the reduced footfall in the town itself. Whilst we support this call on behalf of Debenhams, can I urge the Government to help all such retail outlets? The future of all our town or city centres is very much in the balance, and we must do everything we can to help sustain them.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Finance and the Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans?

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Welsh Government recognises the challenges facing businesses during the pandemic, and an extraordinary effort has gone into providing the most generous business support package anywhere in the UK. Our £1.7 billion package includes over £350 million of non-domestic rates relief for businesses in the retail, leisure and hospitality sectors, and this scheme reduces the rates bills for these businesses to zero for this financial year. This is in addition to our existing rates relief schemes, which are providing over £230 million of support this year. As a result of our schemes, over 70,000 businesses and other organisations in Wales are paying no rates this year. We've also provided over £800 million of funding for grants related to rateable values to support small and medium-sized businesses across Wales, including businesses in the retail sector. We've worked with local authorities to ensure that this funding has reached businesses as quickly as possible, and I want to thank all local authorities across Wales for the agile and efficient way in which they've approached this challenge to support businesses across our communities.So far, they've issued over 60,000 grants to eligible businesses. Unlike in England, businesses not eligible for these schemes have been able to apply for financial support via our £0.5 billion economic resilience fund, which has been designed to address the gaps in the UK left in the UK Government's offer.
I know that not every business has qualified for financial support, and our package has been designed to be affordable within the available funding in the face of an unprecedented global pandemic. Despite these pressures, the Office for National Statistics figures show that 34 per cent of all businesses in Wales have received Government support in Wales, compared with 14 per cent in England. Our ability to go beyond the support offered by the UK Government was in part funded by our decision to cap the support available through our new rates relief measures, and that decision was not taken lightly. It enabled over £100 million to be directed towards our economic resilience fund, which supports businesses of all sizes. To illustrate the impact that this has, this is the sum needed to fund grants of £50,000 for over 2,000 Welsh SMEs, and this fund has supported thousands of small businesses, which make up a greater share of the Welsh economy, with many serving as the backbone of our communities.
Turning to the challenges facing Debenhams, I recognise the importance of Debenhams stores to our towns and cities across Wales, and I have met with the chair of Debenhams to learn more about the company's position. It's important to recognise that the majority of Debenhams stores in Wales are receiving rate relief and grant support, which amounts to £1.3 million this year. However, Debenhams's problems are well documented, and, as the company faces its third insolvency process in 12 months, I just don't think it's credible to claim that the sustainability of the business could be guaranteed by further rates relief from the Welsh Government. Debenhams has already announced the closure of some of its stores across UK, and those include a number of premises that were eligible for rate relief. And given this challenging backdrop, I referred the company to the economic resilience fund, which has supported strategically important businesses in Wales with a rateable value over £500,000.
It's only right that any further support is linkedto clear commitments on jobs and business plans, because they're the factors that determine whether our support actually delivers for our communities, our town centres and our workers in Wales. With our finite resources, I am confident that a fair balance was struck by limiting rate relief for those larger premises in order to support smaller businesses with nowhere else to turn. We must also recognise that non-domestic rates exist to help fund the local services that we all rely on. Every penny of revenue collected is used to fund local services, and these services are vital in ordinary times, but, in the current circumstances, local authorities are also providing direct and crucial support in dealing with the impact of the virus.
So, to conclude, while working at a pace and scale that is entirely unprecedented, the Welsh Government has provided support to Debenhams and engaged positively with the company, whilst seeking to protect jobs and ensure the sound use of public money. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I now call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. And in concluding today's debate, I wish to thank the petitioner and others who have contacted our committee about this issue. It was good of Jack Sargeant to contribute as a member of the committee, and, you know, face calls to the Minister to set out how such businesses can be supported. My colleague Nick Ramsayendorsing once again the need to acknowledge that these anchor stores, once we lose them, also lead to the loss of many jobs. David Rowlands, highlighting that there are other big name stores out there—and he mentioned House of Fraser, Marks and Spencers—and how that leads to a chain reaction when we lose these large stores.
This debate has enabled some important points and issues to be raised, and I am very grateful to the Minister for responding to many of those. The Petitions Committee will consider this petition once again in light of the contributions that have been made in our Plenary session this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see any objections, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. Welsh Conservatives Debate: COVID-19 and Transport

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans, amendment 2 in the name of Siân Gwenllian, and amendment 3 in the name of Caroline Jones. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected.

We now move to item 10 on the agenda, which is the Welsh Conservatives debate—COVID-19 and transport—and I call on Darren Millar to move the motion. Darren.

Motion NDM7345 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Welcomes the recent relaxation of coronavirus restrictions on travel.
2. Acknowledges the adverse impact of the previous travel restrictions on personal relationships, people’s mental health and wellbeing, and retailers.
3. Regrets the failure of the Welsh Government to provide adequate support for Welsh bus operators during the coronavirus pandemic.
4. Expresses disappointment that the Welsh Government has discouraged airlines from flying from Cardiff Airport.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a)rule out the introduction of quarantine requirements for residents travelling to Wales from within the Common Travel Area;
b) urgently review and increase the support available to bus operators in Wales to enable them to increase the frequency and capacity of bus services for the people of Wales;
c) promote the establishment of new routes from Cardiff Airport to safe destinations around the globe to help it bounce back from the coronavirus pandemic.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion on the order paper.
The people of Wales have endured the most severe restrictions on their movements that any of us will have known in our lifetimes in recent months—restrictions that have been more draconian and longer lasting than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. People have been cut off from their friends and family. Mother's Day, Father's Day, Easter, birthdays, anniversaries, weddings and all sorts of other events that would usually bring families together have been rather muted occasions. And, of course, the lockdown was introduced with good reason: by staying at home, we help to protect many of the most vulnerable in our society, and we've reduced the spread of the coronavirus. But the enduring 5-mile rule was cruel. I recognise that the Welsh Government's intention was to deter long journeys and avoid Welsh beaches or other destinations being overwhelmed, but a 5-mile rule was arbitrary. It kept families apart, and, beyond urban areas, frankly, the rule was a mockery. It adversely affected people's relationships. It exacerbated the problems of loneliness and isolation, contributed to poor mental health and well-being, and made many businesses in Wales less viable.
Prior to the pandemic, Wales, of course, already had the UK's weakest economy and the highest high street vacancy rate, so keeping Wales locked down for longer isn't going to help us to address these facts. To ensure public compliance, of course, with Government guidelines, it's important that Ministers need to ensure that their instructions to the public are fair, realistic and backed up by evidence. To do anything other than that, of course, risks public alienation yet, to date, the Welsh Government has not published a shred of scientific evidence for its cruel 5-mile rule. And that's why we very much welcome the relaxation of the travel restrictions from Monday.
Many of those who want to enjoy getting their freedom back will, of course, opt to jump on a bus. Bus travel, of course, is essential for many of our citizens, but it's a lifeline that is increasingly at risk here in Wales. Bus travel had already fallen by nearly a quarter over the past 13 years as a result of funding cuts, collapsed franchises and route reductions, and, during the pandemic, it's fallen by a further 90 per cent, some of which was directly as a result of people not being able to travel beyond the cruel 5-mile rule.

Darren Millar AC: The 2m social distancing law also means that buses can now only carry a fraction of their previous passengers. In some instances, a bus with a maximum capacity of 64 can now accommodate fewer than just 10 passengers. So, the Welsh Government needs to prevent further cuts to bus services by increasing the support available to operators in order to protect these important lifelines.
The Confederation of Passenger Transport has suggested that £5.7 million a month could restore services in Wales to pre-lockdown capacity. Now, I'm very pleased that the tabling of our motion last week resulted in the Welsh Government announcing the establishment of a bus emergency fund in Wales, but I'm afraid there was scant detail in the written statement that accompanied the announcement as to how this new fund will work, so perhaps the Minister can share some more information on this in his response to this debate, because the reality is that, if we lose more bus routes during this pandemic, we risk a modal shift—a shift back to the car and from public transport. Because the truth is, once bus routes are axed, they're very rarely reinstated.
Dirprwy Lywydd, we also need the Welsh Government to look again at its position on face coverings. Yet again, Wales appears to be lagging behind on this particular issue. While face coverings are now mandatory for some activities in Scotland and in England, in Wales they're not. With the level of cross-border journeys between England and Wales being so significant, this just doesn't make sense, and that's why we're going to be supporting the Brexit Party amendment, which proposes that face coverings are mandatory on all public transport journeys in Wales in the future.
But it's not just our buses that are reeling from the impact of the pandemic—the aviation industry is, of course, too. Just last week, Airbus announced over 1,400 job losses at its Broughton site in north Wales—a devastating blow for the workers and their families, as well as the wider economy. Cardiff Airport, which, of course, taxpayers have been propping up now since it was nationalised back in 2013, has, understandably, also seen a massive reduction in passenger numbers.
The prospect of a swift recovery for Cardiff Airport and the wider aviation sector won't be helped by the Welsh Government discouraging popular discount airlines like Ryanair from flying from Wales, as they did last week. So, can Ministers today explain what actions the Welsh Government is now going to take in order to help the aviation industry in Wales to be able to bounce back, including plans to promote new routes to and from safe locations where the rate of transmission overseas is low? This is particularly critical, of course, for the Welsh tourist industry, which needs to maximise what's left of this summer season going forward.
The industry, of course, is worth billions to the Welsh economy—it employs 8 per cent of the Welsh workforce—yet it's been closed for longer than elsewhere in the UK. Tourism and hospitality businesses, of course, were able to open on Saturday in England, but overnight accommodation remains closed for a further nine days beyond the opening date in England, at a critical time, when many businesses are on a knife edge.
Our single biggest tourism market, of course, which will be a key to the tourism economy's recovery, is England, yet our health Minister took to the airwaves on a national radio station last week to say that he wouldn't rule out introducing a quarantine period for visitors to Wales from other parts of the United Kingdom—I mean, what a ridiculous proposition. Why would anybody come to Wales for a weekend away if they had to quarantine for a fortnight once they arrived? It's an absolutely barmy situation.We've got a porous border with England. How on earth would the Welsh Government be able to stop the daily travel between Wales and Liverpool, Chester, Shrewsbury or Bristol when you've got a situation the way that we have? The last thing that the people of Wales need, frankly, is a slate curtain along our border with England at a time when we need to be boosting trade between our two great nations.
No-one, of course, arriving in Wales from the UK or the wider common travel area should have to quarantine when visiting this part of the United Kingdom, so I do hope that the Welsh Government will rule this out today, and I look for the Minister's doing that in his comments on our debate. I also hope that the Plaid Cymru spokesperson will explain why they seem to support quarantining UK and Irish nationals before entering Wales, because, of course,their amendment proposes removing the statement that we have in our motion in order to amend it. Now, we support the UK Government's work in establishing air bridges, which of course is what the Plaid amendment refers to. We support that work. We want to see air bridges established with other safe destinations overseas. But, of course, air bridges aren't relevant to countries like England where we have actual bridges that connect Wales to England. So, for the sake of those who cross the border regularly and want to visit Wales, we're going to be opposing Plaid Cymru's amendment. We need, I think, to send a very clear message today that, from 11 July, better late than never, Wales is very much open for business and we want to encourage people to visit Wales safely.
So, in closing these opening remarks, Dirprwy Lywydd, Wales is reopening, albeit slowly. We need to help to get Wales moving by supporting public transport operators, by getting our bus network back on its feet, by supporting our aviation industry, and we also need to protect our tourism industry and the jobs that depend on it by promoting Wales as a destination, not drawing a slate curtain along our border. The UK Government has done its bit, of course, with a reduction in VAT on tourism and hospitality businesses for the future, which I think is an excellent move. We now need to see the Welsh Government pull its socks up and do some support work itself. I urge people to support our motion. Diolch.

Thank you. I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call on the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport to formally move amendment1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that while transmission of Coronavirus in the community has reduced owing to the measures put in place, the virus has not gone away, which warrants the Welsh Government’s prudent approach to balancing public health risks against economic, social and other risks, including travel.
2. Recognises the significant pressure Coronavirus has put on Welsh Government finances and that without additional flexibilities from the UK Government, increased investment in one area, such as health, business support or transport, means less funding available for other areas.
3. Welcomes the significant package of emergency support put in place by the Welsh Government to rescue bus and rail transport operators in Wales during the pandemic.
4. Recognises the important role Cardiff Airport has played during the crisis, helping bring in vital PPE supplies to Wales.
5. Notes the Welsh Government's work:
a) with other devolved governments to explore a four nation approach to lifting international travel restrictions;
b) with bus operators and local authorities to explore the appropriate increase of services and put the industry and its management on a sustainable footing for the future; and
c) with Cardiff Airport to explore new routes and secure its future as part of an integrated public transport system across Wales, despite ongoing resistance from the UK Government in what is largely a reserved policy area to create a level playing field for regional airports.

Amendment 1 moved.

Lee Waters AC: Formally.

Thank you. I call on Helen Mary Jones to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Helen Mary.

Amendment 2—Siân Gwenllian
Delete point 5(a) and replace with:
'agree to establishing air bridges to other nations when it is safe to do so and to keep travel arrangements under constant review;'

Amendment 2 moved.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I begin by thanking the Conservative group for tabling this? It is an important debate and it is right that we should be debating issues relating to transport. And there are elements of their motion with which I cannot disagree. It is a good thing that travel restrictions are being lifted. It's a good thing now that it feels safer that travel restrictions are being lifted. And of course, travel restrictions have been very hard on people, hard on us all. There can be none of us in this Chamber and virtual Chamber who have not been desperately missing somebody or more than one person that we haven't been able to see. They were, though, of course, those restrictions, as Darren Millar has acknowledged, necessary.
And the concerns that the motion raises about support for the bus industry are points well made I think. The Deputy Minister's statement earlier this week, brought forward of course after this motion had been tabled, is welcome. But I have to agree with Darren Millar that the commitment to a bus emergency scheme is welcome, but it is, for the Deputy Minister, uncharacteristically vague. It lacks figures and it lacks timescales, and the industry urgently need those, which I hope the Deputy Minister understands.
Now I'm very happy to explain to Darren Millar why we have proposed to amend his motion in the way that we have, and in doing so, if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'll read out exactly what his current motion says. It asks the Welsh Government to, and I quote:
'rule out the introduction of quarantine requirements for residents travelling to Wales from within the Common Travel Area'.
Now, that doesn't make it clear that what he means is rule it out at present for people travelling from other parts of the UK and other parts of the Republic of Ireland. So, what Darren Millar told us is rather different from what is in the text of his motion, and what is in the text of his motion, Dirprwy Lywydd, is frankly bonkers. Clause 5(a), as it stands, asks the Welsh Government to rule out the introduction of quarantine requirements. It doesn't say for how long and it doesn't say under what circumstances. Seriously? Rule out, forever?
There is a real risk of a second spike—maybe, heaven help us, more than one—of this virus. So, let's imagine, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we have a major outbreak of coronavirus in, let's say, Paris. Should the Welsh Government not, in a year's time, in those circumstances, or in six months' time, in those circumstances, working hopefully with the UK Government, restrict travel to Paris, much as we'd all miss it, and then introduce quarantine to allow essential travel to happen again safely? Surely they should. And that's why, Darren Millar, we've tabled our amendment 2, deleting the clause and replacing it with something more moderate. Nobody wants travel to be restricted unnecessarily. I, for one, am desperate to visit my relatives in Italy, but lifting those restrictions has to be done safely.
I'd like to make a brief comment, if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd, on amendment 3, and we are very happy to support this. We do not understand Welsh Government's reluctance to insist on the wearing of face coverings on public transport and, indeed, in other situations where social distancing is difficult to maintain. Several witnesses to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee in our recent hearings around transport, including the trade union representatives, strongly advocated the wearing of face coverings.
Now, the First Minister, in responding to a question earlier, said that Welsh Government was concerned that they believe that, if people are wearing face masks, it may encourage them to behave in a manner that is inappropriate. For me, it seems that seeing people wearing face coverings will encourage people to remember that we are not yet in normal times and may very well encourage them to maintain social distancing and to be more careful. I am a little bit surprised that, in this, the Labour Welsh Government is not prepared to listen to their social partnership colleagues in the trade unions—the workers who are most intimately affected and many of whom have sadly become ill and some of them have died because of the high risk of their professions. So, if the Welsh Government really believes that the wearing of face coverings is going make people behave in an inappropriate manner, I very much wish that they would publish the evidence on which that is based. Because I'm not a great fan of common sense normally, but common sense does suggest otherwise, and my own personal experience of being in settings where people are wearing face coverings also suggests otherwise.
Dirprwy Lywydd, to close, we can't support the Government's amendment. It's the usual 'everything is all right' stuff. It isn't. That's not a sufficient response to the points that the Conservatives have raised in their motion. Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to end by commending our amendment and amendment 3 to the Chamber.

Thank you. Can I call on Caroline Jones to move amendment 3, tabled in her name?

Amendment 3—Caroline Jones
Add as new sub-point at end of point 5:
'make the wearing of face coverings mandatory on all forms of public transport;'

Amendment 3 moved.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I formally move the amendment tabled in my name, and thank the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this important debate. Wales is one of the few places on earth where the wearing of face masks is not mandated. Just yesterday, the royal society published two reports highlighting the importance of wearing face coverings in public. Face masks can and do stop the spread of this virus. Welsh Government have opposed such a move because they believe that it will give people a sense of invincibility; that they'll suddenly forget everything they've been doing for the past 100 days or so. Yes, the need to maintain social distancing and good hand hygiene is important, and that doesn't go away because you wear a mask, but we have to gain every little advantage we can over this disease.
We cannot stay locked up forever. Our over-protective parent, the Welsh Government, cannot afford to pay for us to stay hidden away until they find a cure. As we return to some semblance of normal life, we need every protection possible. Wearing face masks in public is such a protection. The science is solid. Face coverings can prevent those infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus from spreading it via microdroplets. There is also emerging evidence that the majority of infections occur during the pre-symptomatic phase or from asymptomatic carriers, and because the Welsh Government are only testing those with symptoms—and not doing that too well at the moment—we will, therefore, miss the majority of cases. If we mandate the wearing of face masks on all forms of public transport as an absolute minimum, we can help limit the spread of COVID-19.
Lockdown was effective; it was never meant to eliminate coronavirus. It was put in place to ensure that we didn't become overwhelmed, to give us time to prepare. And, in all fairness, it did work. We bought ourselves time, our NHS wasn't overwhelmed, but as we emerge from lockdown, we have to take the necessary precautions. Evidence emerging from some of the countries hardest hit by this pandemic shows that fewer than one in 10 have antibodies against the virus. COVID-19 is not done with us yet. We can't stay hidden away, so we must take every precaution. And all of us have a duty to protect our friends, our family, our neighbours and our countrymen. Social distancing works, but it is not practical. We can't continue to run public transport at a quarter of its capacity for the next one or two years whilst a vaccine is found, mass produced, and given to 7 billion people.
We are in the middle of a climate emergency, but instead of vastly cutting our emissions, we are increasing them. We have spent decades trying to encourage modal shift, telling people to abandon the car, to take the train or bus, and now we tell them to avoid public transport. And we cannot continue to do that. We have to put measures in place to mitigate the risks. Mandatory face masks is one such measure: no face mask, no journey. It's the only way we can ensure the safety of all passengers. Not everyone can work from home; people need to travel. Let's ensure that we do so as safely as we can, and not to support our amendment does send out mixed messages to the public and compromises public safety. So, there has to be consistency, and that's why I urge Members to support our amendment today. Diolch yn fawr.

Russell George AC: I'm pleased to speak in this debate today. I'm going to focus my remarks on the lack of adequate support from the Welsh Government for the bus industry, both historically and during the COVID-19 pandemic. And I'm pleased, as Darren Millar has said, Deputy Presiding Officer, that as soon as this motion was tabled, the Welsh Government published its bus emergency scheme—always good when Welsh Conservatives have influence over Welsh Government policy.
I'll give some context and background to my contribution in terms of the lack of support for the bus industry. Bus passenger journeys in Wales have fallen since devolution while the volume of cars on our roads has increased. Simon Jeffrey of the think tank Centre for Cities has said, and this is a really, really good quote that sums this issue up so well:
'Poor transport puts people in cars, which slows buses down, pushing their cost up, making them less reliable and people move away from using them'.
And that was pretty much the conclusion of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee when we reported on this issue some years ago—the need to break this cycle. The trend, Deputy Presiding Officer, can't continue. If we're going to face up to climate change, which the Welsh Government has itself declared, we need to tackle this issue.
And, of course, cuts to routes disproportionately affect older people, leading to increased loneliness and isolation. And, of course, with younger people, it prevents younger people travelling to and from educational centres. So, it stops them from accessing further education. That's a problem in rural Wales and semi-rural areas of Wales. All this, of course, is completely contrary to the Welsh Government's own strategy, 'Prosperity for All'. So, the Government has really got to move away from the rhetoric and start supporting this particular industry.
Turning to the pandemic, I welcome the £29 million, the industry welcomes the £29 million that the Government announced on 31 March, but let's be clear, that was not new money. Also, that money only lasted three months, and those three months have now passed. So, Wales is the only UK nation that has not provided additional funding for support for the industry. The Welsh Government desperately needs to increase funding and ensure that current bus operators receive the support they need to survive these unprecedented and financial pressures that they are under.
I can't speak in this debate without speaking about bus route 72 in my own constituency, which supports people in Llanfyllin and Llansanffraid to get to Oswestry, to do their shopping and for health appointments. That service was cancelled just a couple of weeks ago. These people that use the service do not have their own transport—an absolutely crucial service. The operator could not continue that service because it wasn't financially viable. So, I am working with Councillors Peter Lewis and Gwynfor Thomas and local community councils to find a solution, but it is incredibly difficult without Government support. The confederation of transport recently told the EIS committee it needs £5.2 million per month to get services to 100per cent because of social distancing. Otherwise, bus services simply will not be sustainable.
Now, turning to the bus emergency scheme, I broadly welcome the Government's creation of this scheme, but, as Darren Millar has said and Helen Mary Jones has said, there is no financial detail with that scheme. Also, there's no detail about how the money can be and will be distributed. So, I've got a number of questions here for the Deputy Minister: how much funding will be allocated in the short term? Will it be proportional to the size of a business? Beyond this emergency period, what will new funding mechanisms and a partnership approach for the bus industry look like in the long term? What will this announcement mean for the bus Bill? Is this now to be shelved altogether? And is the Welsh Government now able to provide the clarity that the industry needs on the continued multiyear funding support for the bus services to operate while trading is still restricted? The lack of detail for long-term funding attached to the bus emergency scheme is a real concern. So, so many questions, Deputy Presiding Officer, and so far, at least, very few detailed answers from the Government.
As I come to conclude, what I think the Minister needs to do now—and this is to be positive and constructive—with some urgency, is to bring forward a taskforce to rethink, reshape and restart local bus services and how they operate in a post-pandemic Wales, led by the Welsh Government, with input from Transport for Wales, the industry and local authorities. I do hope that the Deputy Minister will consider that suggestion seriously, and I do hope that he'll be able to answer some of the questions that I've put in my contribution. Diolch.

Lynne Neagle AC: I want to focus my remarks today on bus travel, because for Torfaen, like many deprived communities in Wales, these are the transport links that matter most. Without the right solution for operators, drivers and passengers, we risk falling foul of the worst possible long-term outcome of this pandemic: that existing disadvantage is further entrenched for our communities.
I know there is a live debate happening right now about whether COVID-19 will force people back into their cars, but, for many people in communities like Trevethin in my constituency, where car ownership is way below the Welsh average, there simply isn't a choice to be made. On health or environmental grounds, it is public transport or nothing. It's the same thing on mortality rates, the ability to homeschool, accessing healthcare or transport solutions. COVID-19 is not the great equaliser that some suggested back in March. It does not impact us all the same. In fact, this pandemic has operated like a catalyst for inequality. As Professor Devi Sridharhas said,
'Wealth is the best shielding strategy for this virus, and from experiencing severe impacts.'
As we work our way out of lockdown, boosting safe access to public transport is vital to ensure that public health protection is not just for the privileged. I recognise it won't be easy. Polling tells us the return to public transport is the No. 1 concern for people when it comes to easing of lockdown, with 78 per cent of people saying they're worried. Combine this with 90 per cent fewer bus journeys being taken, and we are in very difficult territory.
The newly announced bus emergency scheme is very welcome, and I was particularly pleased to see that, in order to access the funding, engagement about planning for routes will be mandated. This must ensure that socially vital links are maintained, and not just the most popular journeys. If in-built inequality has been magnified by the pandemic, then we must see recovery as an engine of opportunity for our poorest communities. This debate about equality and opportunity is not confined to passengers; it matters for bus drivers, too. Figures from the Office for National Statistics for England and Wales show significantly raised rates of death involving COVID-19 amongst bus and coach drivers. Members will know that Sadiq Khan has announced a specific inquiry into the issue in London.
So, this brings me on to the second point today, and that is mandatory face coverings on public transport. Everyone in the Senedd will know I have been supportive of the very cautious approach taken in Wales to easing lockdown, and therefore I find it very difficult to justify what seems like this particular anomaly in our approach. In Scotland, when the mandatory wearing of face coverings was announced, it received universal support from operators, trade unions and passenger groups. Their independent watchdog, Transport Focus, said plainly,
'People thinking of returning to public transport have told us they want face coverings to be used by all passengers.'
This is an attitude I believe will be replicated in Wales, where 81 per cent of people surveyed last month said they support the wearing of face coverings in indoor shared spaces. The message seems clear to me: if we want people to return safely to public transport, we must mandate face coverings. The British Medical Association in Wales has said that wearing masks will afford greater protection to the public and, importantly, will protect the lives of the staff working on public transport, who, as evidence suggests, are at greater risk of infection. Information I've been given by Unite the union, which represents drivers across Wales, shows the problems their members are facing on a daily basis because of current guidance. This is particularly acute on cross-border services, with passengers boarding without masks then becoming embroiled in arguments with other passengers on both sides of the border who are wearing masks. Now, the only way to solve those arguments when they occur is for the driver to leave their seat, making them yet more vulnerable to COVID-19.
As one of the reasons for not going down the mandatory route is not wanting to ask transport staff to police these measures, it seems that the current guidance is making them do that anyway, but without the clarity of Welsh law behind them. I've looked at what the chief medical officer has said on this, I've looked at the World Health Organization guidance and I've read the note from the technical advisory group, and I have to say that it seems anything but clear to me why we are pursuing a non-mandatory route. Can I therefore ask the Minister to publish a more detailed account from the TAG? The note produced from that discussion is vague and unhelpful to those of us who want to understand the Government's decision making. Where the Government cites, for example, that the wearing of face coverings may lead to people not pursuing other, more important safety measures, it would benefit this discussion to know exactly where that evidence comes from and what it says in detail. It seems to me that this is a matter of public messaging, and, if the Government gets that right, we can adopt what the trade unions are calling for—a commonsense approach that protects drivers and benefits passengers alike. Thank you.

Paul Davies AC: Clearly, the Welsh public transport landscape has changed dramatically this year in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, and, before I go on to make my comments, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank those workers across Wales who have continued working and kept essential travel routes open to key workers across the country. Public transport prior to and certainly during the lockdown has provided a lifeline to key workers, and we all owe them a great deal of gratitude for their commitment and hard work throughout this crisis.
Now, at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, I took the opportunity to question the First Minister on protocols for public transport to ensure that measures were put in place to protect commuter safety and to maintain the highest possible hygiene standards, because it was very clear from the outset that COVID-19 would cause considerable disruption to public transport services across Wales. Therefore, this should have been an area that the Welsh Government prioritised from the start, and it's frustrating to hear from those working in the sector that more information and clarity wasn't provided from the very start. Evidence from stakeholders to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee last month made it clear that the sector simply needed to know where it was going, and with some clarity pretty quickly. Members, that need for clarity cannot be emphasised enough. For most public transport providers, levels of service have decreased substantially overnight, resulting in some serious workforce planning and a need to overhaul and reassess routes to ensure those who continue to travel for essential purposes could still do so and in the safest possible way.
Moving forward, the transport sector are right to point out that it’s simply unworkable to operate commercial bus services where running vehicle capacities are at a reduced level. Naturally, buses, for example, will simply not be able to accommodate the same number of travellers per vehicle that they did before the pandemic, and so the Welsh Government must start seriously looking at how bus services are going to be sustainable in the future, considering the major issues that they face in terms of adhering to the social distancing guidance.
Now, other Members have acknowledged that buses are a lifeline to so many people across Wales in providing a way for people to reach and access essential services and facilities, and so as more and more people return to the workplace, an emergency public transport strategy is needed to ensure that communities are not left behind as the demand for travel increases. I’m also aware of the impact in my own constituency, where local providers have made it very clear that more support and guidance is needed from the Welsh Government. I’m aware of the work done by the Confederation of Passenger Transport to establish a recovery group with Transport for Wales, local authorities and other stakeholders, and that’s an important vehicle in engaging with the transport sector and responding to their concerns. As I understand it, that group provided information in relation to how much it would cost to accelerate services over a six-month period from June to December for all operators in Wales, as well as providing information in relation to a bus economic stimulus package. Four weeks on from receiving that information, it was made clear to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee that no formal response was made to the recovery group. That information warranted urgent attention given the serious impact the pandemic has had on providers, and yet the Government was slow in formally responding to the sector. Moving forward, the Welsh Government must redouble its efforts and its communication to the transport industry, and lessons must be learned from this pandemic to better inform policy, going forward.
I’d also like to use my time to focus on the impact of COVID-19 on the road haulage industry, as representations that I’ve received from businesses in my own constituency have made it clear that these businesses missed out on important grant aid and other measures that were initially introduced to support industry. These businesses are still very much needed to support the country’s response to the COVID-19 outbreak, and so the Welsh Government must do more to establish how and where it can best support these businesses. One local provider told me, and I quote, ‘While most of our customers shut up shop and battened down the hatches and furloughed staff, we still need to be operational to deliver essential hospital supplies and food to distribution centres. Our volumes have dropped considerably as some non-essential customers have closed. Current financial support measures are not working. Loans are inaccessible and do not provide the immediate support operators need.’ That’s the reality that some haulage businesses in Wales are facing, and something has got to change.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the COVID-19 pandemic has had an enormous impact on all our lives. It’s a public health emergency, an economic emergency, and it could very well be a transport emergency, too, if we don’t act now and listen to the concerns being raised by those in the sector. I appreciate that there’s no magic wand and that the impact of COVID-19 will continue to be felt for some time to come, but the lack of support and meaningful engagement with the sector has to change. Therefore, in responding to this afternoon’s debate, I hope that the Deputy Minister reflects on the concerns made by the sector and starts considering how Wales’s public transport providers can address some of these issues as restrictions ease and more people rely on their services. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I want to turn my attention immediately to bus travel. In thanking the Conservatives for bringing this debate, I want to particularly thank bus drivers first for their efforts in keeping transport going, especially for key workers, through this crisis, the pandemic that we’ve had. It’s actually the bus drivers that have been the key workers all the way through this crisis, and they put themselves at risk in doing so, and they continue to do so. So, I’d certainly agree with the comments that have been made already on ensuring their safety. This is something I've already been engaging with bus companies and the unions on, and I'll continue to do so. I look forward to hearing from the Minister on how they will ensure bus driver safety going forward, recognising the increased risk to drivers, recognising that with any changes to social distancing, to more passengers now seeking to travel, as well, as people return to work—how Welsh Government will engage with bus operators and with the unions on this very critical matter.
And Minister, as a regular public transport user myself, I would add my voice to those, including colleagues in the unions, who think that face covering should just be mandated on public transport, purely as a precautionary approach. I'm sure the argument will go that we haven't seen the definitive evidence that they play a certain role, but as a precautionary approach—what Lynne has already laid out on the higher risk that goes on public transport in a close, contained space such as a bus, but also the higher risk that we know that bus drivers are already exposed to, let alone their passengers. It just passes that commonsense test that unions and passenger bodies are saying would make it absolutely logical.
So, rather than wait for the nth degree of evidence to say, 'Let this go ahead', let's just do it, because, actually, passengers, drivers, everybody else just thinks it makes sense. I would say it would make sense as somebody who regularly travels on buses and trains. I will wear one come what may, so I want other people to do so as well, because I want to protect other people, not myself. So, let's just go ahead and do it.
But can I say in terms of the funding—? My engagement over this crisis period with people like First Cymru, Bridgend County Borough Council and RCT has been outstanding. We've literally sat down in video meetings and because of the hardship funding that's been put in place, we have talked about the routes that are priorities for people to get to work at the right time they needed to, into their hospitals, into their care homes, to those places where key workers were going. It's the first time I've ever sat down in that situation, and it was because the funding was designed to allow that to happen—for local authorities and, occasionally, people like myself to sit down in partnership and to say, 'Where is the data saying that we should be laying these buses on, what times of the day should we be laying them on?'—and we've got on with it.
So, I welcome that; that's allowed us to bring—. Even in the teeth of the crisis, we brought eight or nine services back on route within days, and it's a credit to First Cymru sitting down with us, credit to those drivers who were willing to put them on. And as we go forward with the new bus emergency scheme, I'm glad that that approach is there, moving progressively away from this deregulated system where we throw money at the wall and wonder what's happening, and we actually say, 'Let's plan a way forward on this'. Minister, I know you're convinced of this; this has to be the way forward in the longer term for the bus sector as well, using the skills, keeping the jobs, building on the jobs; building back up, I have to say, not just the number of people who travel but way beyond.
That's what our aspiration should continue to be, so that it's not a failure in life, as somebody once famously said, if you're over a certain age that you travel on a bus—it's a success, because they're clean, they're affordable, they're user friendly, we have synchronised tickets, it links up with the rail travel, and so on. That has always been your aim, Minister, and we need to get back to that and keep our eyes on the prize going forward.
So, this is really, really difficult in how we do this when people at the moment are worried, but the more that we can actually support bus operators, get the routes going at the times that people want them to be, and say to people, 'We will make it safe for you'—. And that, Minister, I have to say, is where the simple decision over mandating the use of face masks would really help. Let's just do it and make people feel that they can make their contribution in making it safer on public transport, so we get more people back on right now. Thank you very much.

Mark Isherwood AC: As our motion proposes, this Welsh Parliament should regret
'the failure of the Welsh Government to provide adequate support for Welsh bus operators during the coronavirus pandemic'
and call on the Welsh Government to
'urgently review and increase the support available to bus operators in Wales to enable them to increase the frequency and capacity of bus services for the people of Wales'.
The number of bus and coach vehicles in Wales is down 10 per cent in five years, and almost 20 per cent over the last decade. Although a written statement by the Minister for economy and transport, Ken Skates, on 31 March detailed initial support of £69 million for bus and rail services, this is just the normal funding paid upfront, not new money. Three months later, there had still been no update on special funding for bus routes, in stark contrast to the UK Government, which, on 3 April, announced £397 million for English bus services to cope with the pandemic, including £167 million of new funding over 12 weeks, and to the Scottish Government, which announced £46.7 million additional expenditure on 19 June to support bus operators in increasing bus services over the next eight weeks. On 24 June, Arriva Buses Wales wrote to me about the significant impact of social distancing on bus capacity, adding that without additional financial support, akin to the COVID-19 bus service support grant in place across England, bus operators cannot operate the existing insufficient service levels across Wales on a financially sustainable basis, let alone increase service levels to 100 per cent of pre-crisis levels to provide essential capacity across the bus network.

Mark Isherwood AC: My speech in the committee debate on the effects of COVID-19 on Wales's economy, infrastructure and skills, on 1 July, noted that although the Confederation of Passenger Transport presented a proposal to Welsh Government on 15 May, which would enable operators to ramp up bus services, with full costings for all Welsh bus operators, industry correspondence received in late June stated that they had still not received a considered official response, and Wales is now the only country in the UK that's not agreed funding for transport operators to begin to ramp up services, with other costs for additional services. That's a matter of shame. The next day, the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, Lee Waters, announced the creation of the bus emergency scheme. After I copied his statement to industry representatives in north Wales, they responded that—quote—'continuing Welsh Government restrictions in response to the pandemic, including on social distancing, mean that capacity on bus services remains significantly reduced, and there is insufficient money from fares to increase services without increased funding.' 'We look forward', they said, 'to understanding the detail of the proposed transitional arrangements to bridge that gap so we can assess what step up in services may be possible within the resources available and from when.'
In the meantime, however, the Welsh Government has managed to find and rush out £15.4 million for COVID-proof travel schemes that widen pavements and create more space for cyclists, preventing essential prior engagement with the communities affected. In Denbigh, for example, this generated a torrent of e-mails, including: 'Anyone living in the surrounding villages will still need to drive to the town as cycling connections are very poor'; 'This is the most dangerous plan I've ever heard of'; 'I've been asking whether the residents of Denbigh will have the opportunity to give their opinions—I don't think we'll have a say'; 'There's a petition against this plan, which already has over 550 signatures; and 'These proposals are without any factual or logical grounding, and will ultimately be counterproductive.
So, we're calling on the Welsh Labour Government to relax the 2m rule to 1m plus, subject to precautionary measures, to ensure buses can run, and other transport bodies can reopen. As UK COVID-secure guidance states, applying mitigation, such as wearing a face covering, thorough cleaning, practising good hygiene, improved ventilation, and using protective screens at 1m is broadly equivalent to being 3m apart. This is key for the heavy goods vehicle driver training establishments in Gwynedd, which asked me to apply pressure on the First Minister to allow testing and move to the 1m rule in Wales. These tests will restart in England on 13 July. He said there are many driver training establishments of all sectors in Wales on the point of bankruptcy. Let us, therefore, hope that this First Minister will now acknowledge and address his Government's adverse impact on Wales's transport sector.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, Lee Waters?

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to begin by adding my thanks to the transport workers, from airport workers allowing vital PPE to be delivered to Cardiff Airport, bus and train staff, who've helped key workers to deliver services, bike shop staff who've helped to encourage an uptake in cycling, to highway workers who've helped carry out vital repairs. Their hard work throughout the crisis has been invaluable.
These are serious times, Dirprwy Lywydd, and they demand serious responses, and this motion by the Conservative Party in Wales is not a serious response. And I say 'the Conservative Party in Wales', Dirprwy Lywydd, because I'm afraid that the honourable project to create the Welsh Conservatives seems to be dead—abandoned in the face of the coronavirus to follow the reckless path set by the Conservative Party in England.
Week after week, the Welsh Government has faced calls by the Conservative Party in Wales to copy the latest back-of-the-envelope announcement from Downing Street. Public health policy driven by press conference is not the approach of this Government. And unthinkingly copying the folly of their counterparts in London should not be the approach of the Tories here if they want the brand of the Welsh Conservative Party to have any remaining credibility.
The motion regrets the failure of the Welsh Government to provide adequate support for Welsh bus operators during the coronavirus pandemic. It's simply not true, Dirprwy Lywydd. These are commercial companies, as they often remind us, and 95 per cent of their customers have stopped using their service, but while passengers have, understandably, stepped away from public transport, the Welsh Government has not.Darren Millar claimed that the 95 per cent drop was due to his favourite slogan—the 'cruel five-mile rule'. But the drop's been the same in England, Darren, so what's the logic of that? I think the word you used in your contribution was 'barmy'—well, if the cap fits.
We've been subsidising every bus passenger to the tune of £30 per head. Pre-COVID, public sector funding in Wales was around half of bus operators' revenue. The amount operators in Wales received from the taxpayers has not reduced. The UK Government has also provided additional funding to bus operators to also bring the amount of public funding they receive to just under half of their pre-COVID revenues, replicating our level of support. And yet, I don't hear the English Conservative Party in Wales pointing that out. Our emergency funding will continue to guarantee backing for the industry. Our own support now stands at over £45 million for the first six months of this financial year, and yet today's motion regrets our failure to provide adequate support. These are serious times—this is not a serious response.
We'll continue to support public transport, because even though passengers are staying away for now, we want to ensure that there's a network there to serve them when this is over. Of course, these are very difficult times, and there's huge demand on public funding, and a pound spent on running a mostly empty bus is a pound not spent on care homes, not spent on supporting struggling town centres, and not spent helping young people back to work. So, when we do commit Welsh taxpayers' money to help distressed bus companies, we make a choice, and it's our policy to get something in return for that—a commitment to keep down fares, a commitment to keep the services passengers want, and a commitment from companies to open up their books so that we can see that our funding is going where it should be.
Now, a number of contributors have discussed face masks in today's debate, Dirprwy Lywydd: Lynne Neagle, Caroline Jones and Huw Irranca-Davies. And as the First Minister said earlier to the Senedd, we are looking at the position on masks to see if we can allow more people to travel on public transport, and discussing with the chief medical officer his advice. It is not as simple as it's being presented. There are trade-offs here. We are concerned about equalities issues—many people aren't able to wear a mask. Many disabilities are hidden, and there is a danger that passengers feel the wrath of the worry of their fellow passengers for not wearing a mask. So, we need to tread carefully. And the evidence of masks impacting people's behaviour to become more reckless is something we're bearing in mind as well. But, as I say, we're reviewing it. We're not in a position today to change our position, but we are discussing this at the moment with the chief medical officer.
We will make additional funding available to support a gradual increase of services, but at a time that's right for passengers and the economy, not simply for bus company shareholders, who have been lobbying the Welsh Conservatives today, evidently. It may be that they want us to hand over more of our money to billionaire owners or foreign Governments, but we'll continue to insist on value for Welsh passengers and we make no apology for that.
Let me turn to Cardiff Airport, where the motion criticises us for discouraging airlines from flying. An airport the Conservatives wanted us to let fail in private ownership, an airport the Welsh Government ownership rescued and revived and up until this pandemic hit was being turned around—numbers up by 70 per cent since the Welsh Government stepped in—and each step of the way, in the face of opposition from the Conservative Party in Wales—each step—and our calls for the UK Government to help regional airports, like Cardiff, ignored. And that's where the Welsh Conservatives should be putting some of their firepower, such as it is, to try and persuade the UK Government to develop a coherent regional airport strategy.
And now we're criticised for wanting to enforce the travel restrictions that the Conservatives voted for. The Conservatives supported the law passed by this Senedd to ask people to stay local. And as soon as a corporation comes along, we see the true colours of the Tories—on the side of another private company that wants to put short-term profit before public health. And, again, we make no apologies for wanting to keep people safe.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Lee Waters AC: Llywydd, the stay local law is now lifted, and we are working very closely with the management of Cardiff Airport to secure its future. So, we'll oppose the motion, Llywydd. We're grateful to Plaid Cymru for their amendment, which we will support. And I say to the Conservative Party in Wales, 'Get serious'. Diolch, Llywydd.

I've been notified of two short interventions. The first is by Hefin David.

Hefin David AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Much has been made by the bad cop, Russell George—no, the good cop, Russell George—75 per cent of his speech was bad cop—making reference to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee evidence. Well, point 2, I think, of the motion says that the Conservatives regret the failure of the Welsh Government to provide adequate support for Welsh bus operators. But the evidence from Nigel Winter, the managing director of Stagecoach South Wales, in the committee—. I asked him this question:
'Can I ask about the effectiveness of Welsh Government support, financial support, during the crisis, and how the funding is being allocated and on what basis?'
His reply, if I can just put it on the record:
'If I can answer that, Chair, I think, first of all, to say that, when the pandemic first hit at the end of March/beginning of April, I thought that the reaction by the Minister to support the industry was very much appreciated, very timely, very quick. I think that his decisive action helped to sustain operators, which would otherwise, I think, have been in some serious financial difficulty.'
I think we need that on the record.

And Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I just wanted to correct or alter a comment I made in my earlier contribution. Of course, in referring to the reason why we oppose the idea that Welsh Government should never impose quarantine, I referred to an example that was outside the common travel area. It will not surprise Darren Millar, I'm sure, to know that I'm not an expert in these matters, but my point stands. It would still be ridiculous if there was an outbreak in Dublin or in Guernsey for the Welsh Government not to be able to impose quarantine, if that was the safe thing to do. I'm grateful to you, Llywydd, for allowing me to correct myself.

Nick Ramsayto respond to the debate.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank everyone who's taken part in this important debate today? I think, to start with, I have to turn to the Minister's comments. I'm all for robust debate in this Chamber or on Zoom, and I know that things have been a little bit difficult with the format of debates over recent times, but to attack our motion as not being a serious motion I was highly disappointed with. When you look at a motion that calls for greater support for the bus industry, which has been having such difficulties with social distancing and maintained capacity, when we called in our motion for support for Cardiff Airport, and we, actually, dare to say that we believe that there should be flights going from Cardiff Airport, and yet it's—

Mick Antoniw AC: But it wouldn't be there if it was up to you.

Nick Ramsay AC: Well, I'm glad you've said that, Mick Antoniw, because it is quite true to say that we did not support the public ownership of that airport. But I tell you what, what is ironic is when you support public ownership of the airport and you put public money into that, and then you take decisions that refuse flights to fly from that airport that is going to get money back for the taxpayer. So,if we want to talk about serious debate in this Chamber, then I think the Minister should probably look a little bit more closely at his own contributions before attacking this side of the house. [Interruption.] I don't think I can take an intervention.

No—[Inaudible.]

Nick Ramsay AC: I would otherwise, Jenny. The relaxation of the coronavirus restrictions on travel has created, I think it's true to say, a range of challenges, but also a range of opportunities, and I think that we need to look at the balance between those and make sure that we appreciate that. As Darren Millar said in opening, there's no doubt at all that restrictions, such as the 5-mile rule, no matter how much Ministers maintain that they were discretionary—it was causing confusion. It was causing stress. And for us to be told and for our constituents to be told that it was a rule but it wasn't a rule at the same time—well, that wasn't serious. And I'm pleased that that five—. And we all welcome the fact that that rule has been abolished, as Darren Millar said in opening.
Darren also said that he welcomed the bus emergency fund, and, yes, we do welcome that, but we do require more detail on it. And I wish, actually, the Minister in his response, rather than going on about the nuances of our motion so much, had actually given a little bit more detail on what is a very opaque area at the moment, and an area that the bus industry needs support on.
I'm pleased that Helen Mary Jones clarified her comments earlier. She must have anticipated that I was going to come back on her—. She also called our motion 'bonkers'. I'm not sure what it is, when you try to put in a motion things that are common sense to the public and common sense to people out there, that you need to support the economy, support transport links and support the public at a time of a pandemic—why on earth that would be called 'bonkers', I don't quite understand. But, yes, the common travel area, the example used with Paris, was an odd one.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to say, however, that in terms of, at some point in the future, trying to enforce a quarantine along the England-Wales border and within a common travel area that has existed within the UK and between Ireland for a 100 years—there would obviously be major difficulties in enforcing that quarantine. There would be major costs involved. So, I think it is again quite reasonable for us to say that that should not be something that the Welsh Government should be counting on. Of course, it would require further co-operation across the UK as well. And, yes, the Minister emeritus, Alun Davies—well, he piped up earlier and accused the Welsh Conservatives of having a fetish with the border. Well, all we're pointing out is that the border is a long, porous border. It does have real issues and to try and enforce a quarantine would be difficult. And once again, there was no detail given. It was all very opaque as to how that would happen in practice.
Caroline Jones, and Lynne Neagle, actually, made very sensible points about calling on the Welsh Government to review the decision not to make the wearing of face masks mandatory on public transport. Again, how can you describe that as not a serious point to make in the debate? Most experts accept that the wearing of face masks should be a mandatory condition, and that's happening elsewhere. So, if there really is this evidence that the Minister has identified as to why we shouldn't have that mandated in Wales, then let's see that evidence. I think Lynne Neagle called for that. Let's see it. Let's all understand why it is that the wearing of face masks should not be mandatory in this corner of the United Kingdom when it should be mandated everywhere else.
Central to all of this is the need, as I know the Welsh Government constantly say and have argued in the past, to protect the public. That is why we have brought this debate forward. That is why we have these debates on the need to deal with the pandemic. We need to protect the public, but at the same time we need to ease the lockdown and support the economy as we move forward.
And I'll say in closing, Llywydd, that I hope that when we do come out of this lockdown, going back to some of Darren Millar's initial points—I do hope that we will not simply be trying to return to all the old practices of the past, and that we will be seeking to walk the walk, not just talk the talk, in terms of developing a greener economy, a more sustainable economy in the future, an economy that builds on opportunities that have been presented over the last month, and doesn't just respond and shy away from some of the challenges that are being presented. I think the public understand that, we understand that, many Assembly Members—Senedd Members, I should say—from the Government benches understand that as well. This is a serious debate, it's a serious motion, this is a serious discussion to be had. Let's all of us work together and as we move forward put the Welsh economy on a footing so that we can come out of this lockdown in a really solid, sustainable way and we can build a Wales in the future that people can be proud of.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? Does any Member object? [Objection.]

I thought you might. [Laughter.]

I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

In accordance with Standing Order 31.14D, there will be a break of at least five minutes before voting time, and ICT support will be on hand to assist with any issues during this time. So, we will now take a break.

Plenary was suspended at 18:56.
The Senedd reconvened at 19:06, with the Llywyddin the Chair.

11. Voting Time

So, that brings us to voting time, and the first vote is on the Welsh Conservatives' motion on transport, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 39 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.

Welsh Conservatives Debate - Covid-19 and Transport - Motion without Amendment: For: 16, Against: 39, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on amendment 1, and, if amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, no abstentions, 26 against, and therefore amendment 1 is agreed. Amendments 2 and 3 are deselected.

Welsh Conservative Debate - Amendment 1 (Rebecca Evans): For: 29, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendments 2 and 3 deselected.

I therefore call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7345 as amended
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that while transmission of Coronavirus in the community has reduced owing to the measures put in place, the virus has not gone away, which warrants the Welsh Government’s prudent approach to balancing public health risks against economic, social and other risks, including travel.
2. Recognises the significant pressure Coronavirus has put on Welsh Government finances and that without additional flexibilities from the UK Government, increased investment in one area, such as health, business support or transport, means less funding available for other areas.
3. Welcomes the significant package of emergency support put in place by the Welsh Government to rescue bus and rail transport operators in Wales during the pandemic.
4. Recognises the important role Cardiff Airport has played during the crisis, helping bring in vital PPE supplies to Wales.
5. Notes the Welsh Government's work:
a) with other devolved governments to explore a four nation approach to lifting international travel restrictions;
b) with bus operators and local authorities to explore the appropriate increase of services and put the industry and its management on a sustainable footing for the future; and
c) with Cardiff Airport to explore new routes and secure its future as part of an integrated public transport system across Wales, despite ongoing resistance from the UK Government in what is largely a reserved policy area to create a level playing field for regional airports.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, four abstentions, 22 against, and therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Welsh Conservatives Debate - Motion as Amended: For: 29, Against: 22, Abstain: 4
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

12. Debate: Stage 3 on the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill

The next item of business, therefore, is the Stage 3 debate on the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill, and we will move immediately to the groups.

Group 1: Offence to use wild animals in travelling circuses (Amendments 1, 3, 2)

And the first group of amendments relates to the offence of the use of wild animals in travelling circuses. Amendment 1 is the lead amendment in the group, and I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group—Llyr Gruffydd.

Amendment 1 (Llyr Gruffydd) moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to move the two Plaid Cymru amendments in this group. At the moment, of course, the Bill only prohibits the use of wild animals in performing or being exhibited for entertainment in a travelling circus environment. For me, that definition is far too narrow, and Members, of course, will have received messages from organisations such as the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Animal Defenders International expressing the same view and encouraging you to support the Plaid Cymru amendments to that end.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Under the legislation, a wild animal can still legally be taken on tour with a travelling circus and trained for performance in Wales— perhaps, of course, for later exhibition in a country without a ban. Now, this would still subject those animals to many of the issues that compromise welfare and make itinerant circus life so difficult for them. The legislation presently fails to address these realities or the many challenges beyond just performance and exhibition that make travelling circus life a grim reality for the animals, including, of course, transportation and forced training.
This amendment isn't about deprivation of property, it's about preventing welfare problems associated with the transient nature of travelling circuses. Welfare issues connected with the use of wild animals in travelling circuses extend far beyond performance and exhibition, and legislation should deal with the confinement, stressful transportation, forced training and abnormal social groupings that remain a reality for these animals. Rejecting these amendments would mean, of course, that we will still allow wild animals to travel and even train with travelling circuses, and, of course, we'll just therefore be prohibiting their performance or exhibition.
A big focus of this Bill has been ending the spectacle of wild animals touring in travelling circuses, and for this opportunity to be missed, I believe, would be significant. Now, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee has already explored how the absence of a complete ban would be unlikely to meet the public's expectations. So, our first amendment would bring Wales closer to more robust bans that we find in places such as the Republic of Ireland, where, of course, the legislation states that a person shall not be allowed to use a wild animal in a circus, and that any reference to a circus includes a reference to any place where animals used in a circus are kept or are trained.
Coming on to our second amendment, a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales, I'm sure we'd all agree, is long overdue, but, despite it being on the agenda for many, many years here in Wales, we will, of course, be now the final nation in Great Britain to introduce a ban. Discussions within the Assembly, as it was, go back to at least 2006, with the tabling of a statement of opinion that hoped that the Animal Welfare Act 2006 may empower Wales to act. It took us nine years—in 2015, then—for the Welsh Government to say that it believed that there is no place for the use of wild animals in circuses, but of course we are still waiting. And in England, in the meantime, the Wild Animals in Circuses Act 2019 came into force in January of this year, while in Scotland, of course, a ban has been in force since 2018.
However, as drafted, Wales's proposed ban, of course, won't come into force until 1 December this year, and I know circumstances clearly have conspired to make it unlikely now that we will see any travelling circuses maybe visiting Wales this summer—although who knows, later on in the autumn, potentially, what will happen—but, of course, it would mean then that Wales would still be the only location where a circus performance would, albeit temporarily, remain a legal reality for wild animals.
Now, I'm impatient for a ban to be implemented, although I do understand that the goalposts have moved since this particular amendment was tabled earlier this year, and I also appreciate, of course, that the second amendment very much depends on the first amendment being passed, but I would urge Members to support both our amendments to this Bill. And just to say as well, Llywydd, I won't be contributing to the debate on the next group of amendments, but Plaid Cymru will be supporting all of the amendments tabled to this Bill today. Diolch.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I welcome the opportunity to move the amendment in my name in this group, amendment 3. We'll also be supporting the first amendment Plaid Cymru have tabled today, but not supporting the second amendment that Plaid have, and I'll go on to explain why that's the case. I could be really Churchillian and try and appeal to the Government benchesto support us in our amendments before the Chamber today, but I seem to remember from committee stage that we had very little luck. But I do think that they are worth putting down at Stage 3, in particular the ability to make sure that training exercises undertaken by circus animals could not be turned into a fee-paying source of income for circuses. Because, at the moment, there is a loophole in the Act, which was evidenced in information given to us at the committee stage, Stage 1, by various organisations that said, 'Yes, this piece of legislation would actually stop animals being displayed in the ring for entertainment purposes', but there was a risk that animals could still travel with that circus into Wales and ultimately go through a training routine outside of the ring that could generate fee income for the circus—for owners and circus exhibitors.
As Llyr, the Plaid Cymru spokesperson said, this has been tossed around now since 2006, with the first statement of opinion. Surely it makes sense that, if we're going to put a piece of legislation through the Welsh Parliament, we try and curtail any loopholes that have been pointed out to us in the expert evidence that we, in committee, took. And so I do hope that Members will be able to support amendment 3 in this particular grouping, because it doesn't seek to transform the Bill, it seeks to enhance the Bill and close any loopholes that might, in future, offer an income stream for circus owners when they come into Wales with the animals that they might bring with them. It seems a perfectly logical exercise in doing this, and I do hope that the Government will desist from opposing this particular amendment, seeing as it's based on the evidence that the committee took.
We will not be supporting the second amendment that Plaid Cymru have put down, again because the evidence clearly highlighted that there did need to be a transition stage, from when the legislation came into force, for the circus owners then to find suitable homes and accommodation for these animals, these wild animals, that, ultimately, need to have their welfare considerations taken into account. And, again, that was evidenced at Stage 1. I can sympathise with Llyr's making the point that it would be better to try and do it as quickly as possible, but the reality is that we are talking about living animals and they do have welfare considerations that, when this legislation is enacted, it does need to be giving breathing space to allow suitable accommodation and future homes for them. And that's why we will not be supporting that amendment. Therefore, I move amendment 3 and call on the Welsh Parliament to support amendment 3, standing in my name, in this group.

Lesley Griffiths AC: This is the second time that Members have tabled amendments to extend the scope of the offence. They did the same at Stage 2, when they were rejected by the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee.
I'd really like to begin by making it very clear that the purpose of this Bill is to address ethical concerns by banning the use of wild animals in travelling circuses in Wales. There is other legislation in place to protect the welfare of animals. This Bill has a very narrow purpose and it seeks to make it an offence for an operator of a travelling circus to use or cause or permit another person to use a wild animal in a travelling circus. A wild animal is used if the animal performs or if it's exhibited. If circuses choose to keep and train their wild animals and use them in a different way, that's their prerogative, provided they do so within the law.
The circuses, in giving evidence to the committee, have already said that they intend to keep using their wild animals, albeit not as part of the travelling circus. And, in order to do this, they would, presumably, need to train them. Any decision on the future of their wild animals is likely to have already been made, given the ban in England, which came into force in January. One would assume that it would be uneconomic for circuses to continue to take their wild animals with them when they tour if they cannot use them, although that would be a decision for them.
The proposed amendments amount to de facto bans, either on travelling circuses keeping wild animals—which would constitute the complete deprivation of property—or the training of wild animals, and this would risk infringing the right to the peaceful enjoyment of possessions, which is protected by article 1 of protocol 1 to the European Convention on Human Rights. Restricting how an animal is used in a circus environment, as we're trying to do here, is less of an interference than depriving an owner of it entirely, or restricting how they use wild animals outside of the circus environment.
I do understand the Member's desire to see a ban implemented as soon as is practicable and using wild animals in travelling circuses purely for our entertainment can no longer be justified, and that's why I brought forward this legislation. The Bill, should it be successful, is scheduled to receive Royal Assent in mid August at the earliest, and come into force on 1 December. The coming into force date was raised by the Member during the debate on the general principles of the Bill, and I said I would consider an earlier coming into force date, as I did when I gave evidence to the committee last year. However, the committee, in its Stage 1 report, in acknowledging the concerns around the timing of the ban and the calls to introduce the ban earlier, reported, and I quote:
'Time allowed for legislative scrutiny of the Bill would provide limited scope to bring forward the coming into force date. Given this, and the practical implications of introducing the ban during touring season, we are satisfied that the coming into force date is reasonable and appropriate.'
The reason for the December coming into force date, I'm sure Members will remember, is both the travelling circuses that have used wild animals will be expected to have completed touring and returned to their winter quarters by this time. But as Llyr referred to, due to the COVID-19 restrictions, these circuses have not toured at all this year, and it's too early to say when this type of activity will be permitted. But, as you referred to, the circuses may be able to tour later this year, and if they are, it's possible they may decide not to tour again in Wales with their wild animals, given the activity is now prohibited in England, where both circuses are based.
Implementing a ban during the touring season, which could be any time up until the end of November, would put the circuses in a difficult and unreasonable position of having to comply with the provisions of the Bill whilst they were on tour with their wild animals. We've looked into the coming into force date very carefully, and there is little to be gained from bringing it forward by what would likely be a few weeks.
So, Llywydd, I don't believe any of these amendments are necessary. The purpose of the Bill is to address ethical concerns—[Interruption.] Yes.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you. I wasn't sure whether interventions were permitted.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don't know either.

Well, since you've pointed it out now, no, they're not.

Lesley Griffiths AC: No, they're not. Okay. The purpose of the Bill—

Very quickly, because I'm a generous kind.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I just want to seek a point of clarification on the amendment that I put in about training. You did say, in your opening remarks, that circus owners have indicated that they will use the animals in a different way. You said that in your opening remarks, Minister. So surely amendment 3, which seeks to, obviously, stop that happening in training exercises, should the amendment that is accepted by the Government to, in your words, then stop the owners using the animals in a different way.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, I think I've clarified that in my earlier answer, Llywydd.
So, the purpose of the Bill is to address ethical concerns about how wild animals are used in travelling circuses. There's other legislation already in place to protect the welfare of animals, including the welfare of animals during transport. So, I urge Members to reject the amendments. Diolch.

Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Well, thank you for the contributions to this discussion around this first group of amendments. I'm slightly saddened, Minister, by you sort of grudgingly accepting that wild animals could tour with circuses in Wales in the autumn, when actually we could legislate now, today, to stop that from happening.
And you referred to the 'peaceful enjoyment of possessions', to quote your words, as a human right. Even when it contravenes animal welfare? I think there are serious questions, really, that need to be asked around that. I just feel it's quite perverse that we're legislating here to protect the welfare of wild animals in travelling circuses and then choosing to define that in such a narrow way that we're actually missing a real opportunity here to extend it beyond just performance and exhibition.
You mentioned the fact that there are other pieces of legislation in place that protect the welfare of animals. I understand that that is the case, yes, but we're getting a clear message from a number of animal welfare organisations that I've referred to, telling us that they support these amendments. So, there must be something that isn't right in the current provisions that are out there. So, I am disappointed that you're not accepting these amendments, and I'm sure the wider public, as well, will be quite perplexed by this and will share my disappointment.
So, I would urge Members not to waste this opportunity to make as much of a difference as we can in this legislation, and I would ask you to support both Plaid Cymru amendments this afternoon.

The question is that amendment 1 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we will move to a vote immediately, and in accordance with Standing Order 34.14D, there will be another break of five minutes before we vote on this amendment and the next two amendments. So, we will break now for five minutes.

Plenary was suspended at 19:24.

The Senedd reconvened at 19:30, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

[Inaudible.] [Laughter.] In favour 25, no abstentions, 29 against, and therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 1 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill: For: 25, Against: 29, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 3 is the next amendment.

Is it being moved?

Amendment 3 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Move.

Moved by Andrew R.T.Davies.

The question is that amendment 3 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we move to a vote on amendment 3. Open the vote. [Inaudible.]—one Member having not been able to vote. The result of the vote on amendment 3 is that there were 25 in favour, no abstentions, and 29 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is not agreed.

Amendment 3 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 25, Against: 29, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2. Llyr Gruffydd.

Amendment 2 (Llyr Gruffydd) moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Move.

Amendment 2 is moved. The question is that amendment 2 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we move to a vote on amendment 2. Open the vote. Close the vote, and, again, one Member was unable to vote. The result of the vote is that there were 12 in favour, one abstention, and 41 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

Amendment 2 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 12, Against: 41, Abstain: 1
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 2: Powers of inspection (Amendments 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

The next group of amendments relates to powers of inspection. Amendment 4 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Andrew R.T.Davies to move the lead amendment.

Amendment 4 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. It's my pleasure to move the amendments in group 2 standing in my name, and I hope they'll find support in the Assembly, but, again, I don't think I'll have much luck there, to be honest, but there you go, it's worth a try, because it is an important area. It is about powers of inspection and the person who will be delegated to undertake that inspection. At the moment, the Bill is not clear exactly who would do that, and these amendments merely seek to tidy that piece of legislation up so that it would either have to be a veterinary surgeon or a suitably qualified individual.
It was a fair criticism in the evidence session and also the Stage 2 proceedings of the committee that the Minister did point out that, actually, in that amendment at that time, we were very prescriptive in saying it should be specifically just a veterinary surgeon. This time, we've broadened the amendment to say a suitably qualified person.
I think many of us, in our roles as politicians, have always sat in the middle of disputes and looked for expert opinions and expert advice. Well, in fairness, you cannot get a more expert opinion in this particular field of inspection than a veterinary surgeon or a suitably qualified person with a similar qualification to a veterinary surgeon. Surely, as politicians, we should be trying to take out the conflict in any piece of legislation, and, hopefully, have a successful resolution where that area might be in dispute.
So, this series of amendments seeks to do that, and I hope very much that the Welsh Parliament will endorse the amendments that are standing in my name, and, hopefully, have a far stronger piece of legislation that actually can get the dispute process in better order, should these powers be required—powers of entry and powers of inspection. So I hope that the Parliament will support the amendments standing in my name this afternoon.

The Minister.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Paragraph 9 of the Schedule sets out the powers of inspection, search and seizure available to an inspector when exercising a power of entry. An inspector cannot seize a wild animal, but may, for example, examine it or take samples. But it's very unlikely that these powers will be needed. Inspectors are already working with the same powers in other legislation. They're not novel, and they mirror powers already in place in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Wild Animals in Circuses Act 2019 in England, and the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Act 2018—both contain similar powers.
Paragraph 8 of the Schedule provides that inspectors may take onto the premises other persons and such equipment and materials as the inspector considers to be appropriate to assist in their duties. The other people could include specialists, for example, a zoological specialist to help identify animals, or a veterinary surgeon. A veterinary surgeon would be required to take a sample from an animal only if the sampling is considered to be a practice of veterinary surgery, as defined by the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966. There are exemptions, but taking a sample of blood, for example, for DNA testing to determine if an animal is of a species commonly domesticated in the British islands or not would have to be carried out by a veterinary surgeon.
Paragraph 10 of the Schedule provides that any person brought onto the premises by the inspector is able to exercise the inspector's powers under paragraph 9, provided they are under the inspector's supervision. A veterinary surgeon accompanying an inspector could, under supervision, take samples from an animal for identification purposes. So, it follows that the proposal to specify that only a suitably trained person or a veterinary surgeon may examine, measure, test or take a sample from an animal, and the associated regulation-making powers, are unnecessary and unjustified. So I ask Members to reject these amendments, which are entirely unnecessary. Diolch.

Andrew R.T. Davies to respond.

Andrew RT Davies AC: If I could respond to the Minister there, Minister, you were responsible for the bovine TB strategy here in Wales, and obviously the testers there have to be either a veterinary surgeon or someone who's suitably qualified—it's specified in the rules and regulations. Surely the same logic is here when you're talking about wild animals, and exotic animals even, where there might be an area of doubt, there might be an area of concern whether the animal does fall under the legislation. As the evidence at Stage 1 that the committee took showed, the list isn't definitive and you do need that expert opinion should a test have to be undertaken, or a clarification of which animals might or might not fall under the legislation. Members who sat on the committee—Labour Members as well—heard that very evidence.
So, I would suggest that these amendments that have been tabled today, again, like my first amendment in group 1, are all about tidying up some of the looser edges of this legislation, so that they take the conflict out. Hopefully this legislation will be passed, because the legislation is non-contentious—we all support its implementation—but ultimately, it can be a far better piece of legislation if these amendments are accepted by the Government and supported by the Parliament as a whole. I hear what the Minister says, and I appreciate these amendments will fall this evening, but I will push them to the vote so that they can be tested this evening. I therefore call for the vote.

The proposal is that amendment 4 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 34.14D, there will be a break of five minutes before we vote on this amendment and the remaining amendments for this afternoon. So, a break of five minutes.

Plenary was suspended at 19:38.

The Senedd reconvened at 19:41, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

We therefore move to a vote on amendment 4. Amendment 4—open the vote.

[Inaudible.]—not been able to be cast, but I will close the vote.

In favour 25, one abstention, 28 against. And therefore, amendment 4 is not agreed.

Amendment 4 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill: For: 25, Against: 28, Abstain: 1
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Andrew R.T. Davies, amendment 5.

Amendment 5 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Move.

The question is that amendment 5 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we move to a vote on amendment 5. Open the vote.

[Inaudible.]—to vote, but I will close the vote.

In favour 25, one abstention, 28 against. And therefore, amendment 5 is not agreed.

Amendment 5 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 25, Against: 28, Abstain: 1
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 6, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Amendment 6 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Move.

Any objection to amendment 6? [Objection.] We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 6. Open the vote.

We'll close the vote.

In favour 25, one abstention and 28 against. And therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 6 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 25, Against: 28, Abstain: 1
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 7, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Amendment 7 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Move.

The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We therefore move to a vote on amendment 7. Open the vote.

[Inaudible.]—unable to be cast. Close the vote.

In favour 26, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, amendment 7 is not agreed.

Amendment 7 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 26, Against: 28, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 8, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Amendment 8 (Andrew R.T.Davies) moved.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Move.

The question is that amendment 8 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 8.

One vote still unable to be cast.

In favour 26, no abstentions, 28 against. And therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 8 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 26, Against: 28, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 9, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Amendment 9 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Move.

The question is that amendment 9 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 9. Open the vote. Close the vote, with one Member having been unable to vote.In favour 26, no abstentions, 28 against. And therefore, amendment 9 is not agreed.

Amendment 9 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill: For: 26, Against: 28, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We have reached the end of our Stage 3 consideration of the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill. I declare that all sections and schedules of the Bill are deemed agreed. That concludes Stage 3 proceedings.

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

And, before we close, may I thank everyone for their efforts today? And may I particularly thank our officials who have worked to enable us, as a Senedd, to vote electronically remotely and to break new ground in doing so, once again? Thank you very much for your patience and I wish you all well.

The meeting ended at 19:48.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

David J. Rowlands: What assessment has the First Minister made of the link between Covid-19 and obesity?

Mark Drakeford: We are working with other UK nations and health agencies to understand and collate the evidence and links between COVID-19 and obesity. Increasing evidence does indicate that obesity is an independent risk factor for severe illness and death from COVID-19.

Lynne Neagle: What steps is the First Minister taking to ensure the safety of workplaces during the pandemic?

Mark Drakeford: We have enshrined into law the 2m physical distancing duty and have to date published 20 workplace guidance documents—with more to follow. We consulted with Welsh businesses and trade unions to ensure that our approach is proportionate and fair to businesses and workers.

Leanne Wood: Will the First Minister provide an update on maternity services at Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board?

Mark Drakeford: Oversight of the improvements needed in Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board maternity services has continued during the COVID-19 response. The safety of women and babies remains the top priority.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Will the First Minister make a statement on support for care homes in light of Covid-19?

Mark Drakeford: A range of actions have been taken to support the care home sector, including financial support, securing access to personal protective equipment and the provision of testing.We are commissioning a focused rapid review of the care home operational experience between March and June this year to inform future policy and practice.

Questions to the Minister for Education

Helen Mary Jones: How is the curriculum bill hoping to increase the number of those learning Welsh in order to achieve the aim of reaching a million Welsh speakers by 2050?

Kirsty Williams: The Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill fully supports the aims of Cymraeg 2050. The Bill will put in place a national framework to support teaching, learning and continual progress in Welsh and other areas.

David Melding: Will the Minister make a statement in response to calls made by Barnardo's Cymru and Action for Children Cymru for additional mental health and emotional support for vulnerable children as they return to school?

Kirsty Williams: I have been clear that emotional and mental well-being must be a priority as children return to school. It is one of the key principles in my decision framework for the next phase of education and it features prominently in the learning and operational guidance published in June.

Paul Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's priorities for learners in Pembrokeshire for the next 12 months?

Kirsty Williams: We are working with stakeholders to develop robust plans for learners to return to schools in the autumn. I intend to make a statement later this week outlining my plans and the learning priorities for the next academic year.

Neil Hamilton: Will the Minister provide an update on steps being taken to ensure that the content of the proposed Welsh curriculum is politically neutral?

Kirsty Williams: One of the four purposes of the new curriculum for Wales is for young people to become ethical, informed citizens who understand and exercise their human and democratic responsibilities and rights. Learning in the new curriculum will be inclusive and will draw on a range of different perspectives.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Darren Millar: Will the Minister make a statement on access to NHS services in north Wales?

Vaughan Gething: Our COVID-19 operating framework focus remains on access to essential NHS services, with the introduction of routine services continuing to be a matter for local determination based on an assessment of safety, workforce, capacity, clinical support requirements and risks for patients.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services

Mike Hedges: What has the Welsh Government done to support older people who are living on their own during the pandemic?

Julie Morgan: We have provided £400,000 to Age Cymru to establish a national telephone befriending service to provide emotional support to older people who live alone. We have also worked with local government and the third sector to ensure that practical support with shopping and medicines is in place.